Shrinkage
- Thread starter BigCaBoi
- Start date
Ain't THAT the truth... Permanent shutdown of the boys is baaaad news...
Same concerns here, so I read up on it, and really you are completely safe if you don't use too much for too long, and as it turns out, that takes quite a bit of work (to desensitize).
I ordered 15000 iu's for my PCT, which I'll use as follows (playing it very safe).
500 iu's 2x a week for the last 3 weeks of my cycle, then 1000 iu's 3x a week for 2 weeks AFTER the cycle, but before clomid. Clomid for 3 weeks.
The clomid can desensitize the pituitary cycle too, but 3 weeks is what a lot of vets recomend as completely safe. 50 to 100 ED.
HCG brings the boys back up to size, and clomid tells the pituitary, "Hey, send out some LH cause there isn't enough test in the system". Both the pituitary and the testes are suppressed during a cycle, so hcg fixes the boys, and clomid fixes the pituitary.
To the guy who's worried about needles, hey, do you bud a favor and inject him, or show him on your self. Man if he uses a slin pin, he won't even feel it! And hcg can be done sub-q, so he doesn't even have to go IM.
Otherwise he will lose maybe half his gains, that's what happened to me with no pct.
Same concerns here, so I read up on it, and really you are completely safe if you don't use too much for too long, and as it turns out, that takes quite a bit of work (to desensitize).
I ordered 15000 iu's for my PCT, which I'll use as follows (playing it very safe).
500 iu's 2x a week for the last 3 weeks of my cycle, then 1000 iu's 3x a week for 2 weeks AFTER the cycle, but before clomid. Clomid for 3 weeks.
The clomid can desensitize the pituitary cycle too, but 3 weeks is what a lot of vets recomend as completely safe. 50 to 100 ED.
HCG brings the boys back up to size, and clomid tells the pituitary, "Hey, send out some LH cause there isn't enough test in the system". Both the pituitary and the testes are suppressed during a cycle, so hcg fixes the boys, and clomid fixes the pituitary.
To the guy who's worried about needles, hey, do you bud a favor and inject him, or show him on your self. Man if he uses a slin pin, he won't even feel it! And hcg can be done sub-q, so he doesn't even have to go IM.
Otherwise he will lose maybe half his gains, that's what happened to me with no pct.
dzl66 said:
Yeah, it was more of a warning not to use too much clomid for too long, because some studies show it desensitizes the pituitary cycle.
The problem may be in vitro studies... you really need a fully functional system to properly study a thing, not a petri dish.
Do you know Pheedno? I'll have to quote him here to show you where that info came from.
I'm posting another response to this, which shows why I changed my mind completely on Clomid use.
Pheedno's quote:
Now IMO, selective estrogen receptor modulators(SERMs) such as Clomiphine and Tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too. Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary, while Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotrophin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:
1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux
occured PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
2. If your running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and L-dex
End Pheedno quote.
I've read studies where guys have been on clomid for 2/3 of a year, with no ill effects, but I wasn't sure of the dose. Usually, like with hcg, it's only dangerous when guys use huge doses for long periods. Like with hcg, 1000 iu is fine, but as soon as you put in 3000, the aromatising cycle increases 10 fold. Weird things seem to happen when you pass a 'line of safety' for doses.
Maybe I shouldn't have said anything, but since I read the warning, I thought I'd pass it along. This warning was too much of a warning, I think, and I apologize for the error. I'm now convinced clomid should be done 4-5 weeks minimum (see other post).
Originally Posted by neodavid
clomid can desensitize the pituitary cycle too, but 3 weeks is what a lot of vets recomend as completely safe. 50 to 100 ED
The problem may be in vitro studies... you really need a fully functional system to properly study a thing, not a petri dish.
Do you know Pheedno? I'll have to quote him here to show you where that info came from.
I'm posting another response to this, which shows why I changed my mind completely on Clomid use.
Pheedno's quote:
Now IMO, selective estrogen receptor modulators(SERMs) such as Clomiphine and Tamoxifen are selective to which tissues they bind too. Clomid being selective to the suprapituitary, while Tamox is selective to breast, bone, and liver ERs. I've come to this conclusion based on the comparison of studies on both SERMs. In every study showing benefit to HPTA from tamoxifin, the duration of the administration is 3-12months(This includes studies cited by William Llewellyn in his Nolva vs Clomid article). In studies showing levels of LH, FSH, and Testosterone checked after short durations of tamox, they were either insignificant, or their was an actual drop. I believe this is because tamox selectively works at the mammery(as well as bone and liver), thus taking longer for LH stimulation to occur.
With clomid, benefit to gonadotrophin concentrations, LH, FSH, and serum testosterone can be seen in short periods of 2-6wks. Because of the apparent selective nature of the two, and given our usual PCT duration, clomid is by far superior at LH stimulation than Nolva. Now both is the wise choice for a couple of reasons:
1. Nolva acts as the preventive measure to the estrogen flux
occured PC while clomid is the primary LH stimulator(Even more so in the case an AI is not used).
2. If your running a longer PCT, clomid needs to be discontinued after a while as it has been shown to desensitize GnRH, this due, IMO, to it's selective nature to the suprapituitary. In the longer forms of PCT, the clomid will be phased out, leaving Nolva and L-dex
End Pheedno quote.
I've read studies where guys have been on clomid for 2/3 of a year, with no ill effects, but I wasn't sure of the dose. Usually, like with hcg, it's only dangerous when guys use huge doses for long periods. Like with hcg, 1000 iu is fine, but as soon as you put in 3000, the aromatising cycle increases 10 fold. Weird things seem to happen when you pass a 'line of safety' for doses.
Maybe I shouldn't have said anything, but since I read the warning, I thought I'd pass it along. This warning was too much of a warning, I think, and I apologize for the error. I'm now convinced clomid should be done 4-5 weeks minimum (see other post).
Phreezer said:
Originally Posted by neodavid
clomid can desensitize the pituitary cycle too, but 3 weeks is what a lot of vets recomend as completely safe. 50 to 100 ED
Last edited:
Phreezer, thanks for questioning the Clomid desensitization thing, because while trying to find the GnRH thing for you, I came across another article that warns about TOO SHORT of a clomid cycle.
Your post (quoting from Hogg?) mentioned clomid for 4 weeks, and after reading this article where blood work was done, I'm convinced and will change my pct. After reading more articles, I've determined 5 weeks is good after test, but longer with Deca.
Sorry, the amount of bad data out there is incredible. Wading through it could take a few months.
The article:
Recharging the Boys
Q: Should a steroid user "load" Clomid? I've heard mixed opinions. What about other anti-estrogen drugs?
A: It really depends on the situation. If you're experiencing symptoms of gynecomastia and need to achieve a high blood concentration of the drug quickly, then yes, you should use large dosages over a short period of time. If you simply wish to restore yourself to a eugonadal state, I don't think it's as important to "load." However, I'd really like people to use the following protocol based on what little info we have concerning the restoration of the HPTA.
Essentially, you need to use 100 mg/day of clomiphene (50 mg, twice daily) for at least 2 months. This protocol is based on both anecdotal evidence as well as a few case reports.
One recent case report involved the reversal of a hypogonadal state in a man who'd previously used nandrolone decanoate, stanozolol, and methenolone for several months. The man complained of common hypogonadal symptoms (i.e., loss of libido, fatigue, depression, etc.) and upon investigation his total and free Testosterone levels were 71 ng/dl and 29 pg/ml respectively. (The reference ranges were 260-1000 ng/dl and 34-194 pg/ml, by the way.)
He was then given 100 mg of clomiphene for 5 days and reevaluated 2 weeks later. He reported an improvement in mood, energy, and libido and his total Testosterone was 828 ng/dl. However, after a follow up 2 months later, his symptoms had returned and his total Testosterone concentration was 301 ng/dl. In other words, he suffered a relapse.
They then gave the man 100 mg per day for 2 months and then reevaluated his blood work. They found his total Testosterone was 705 ng/dl and no relapse occurred in subsequent blood work. A similar case reported restoration of the HPTA using the same dosage of clomiphene over a 5 month period.
Anecdotally, I receive many letters from people explaining that they were feeling great when using clomiphene the first 2-4 weeks after their cycle, but seemed to suffer dramatic drops in terms of body composition, mood, energy levels, etc, thereafter.
My guess is that we've been underestimating the amount of time it takes to recover, even when using compounds like clomiphene. Granted, this probably can't be applied across the board as we have to take in many individual factors including what particular androgens the person was using, dosages, length of time, etc., but extended use of the drug seems to be the way to go. (1-2)
Your post (quoting from Hogg?) mentioned clomid for 4 weeks, and after reading this article where blood work was done, I'm convinced and will change my pct. After reading more articles, I've determined 5 weeks is good after test, but longer with Deca.
Sorry, the amount of bad data out there is incredible. Wading through it could take a few months.
The article:
Recharging the Boys
Q: Should a steroid user "load" Clomid? I've heard mixed opinions. What about other anti-estrogen drugs?
A: It really depends on the situation. If you're experiencing symptoms of gynecomastia and need to achieve a high blood concentration of the drug quickly, then yes, you should use large dosages over a short period of time. If you simply wish to restore yourself to a eugonadal state, I don't think it's as important to "load." However, I'd really like people to use the following protocol based on what little info we have concerning the restoration of the HPTA.
Essentially, you need to use 100 mg/day of clomiphene (50 mg, twice daily) for at least 2 months. This protocol is based on both anecdotal evidence as well as a few case reports.
One recent case report involved the reversal of a hypogonadal state in a man who'd previously used nandrolone decanoate, stanozolol, and methenolone for several months. The man complained of common hypogonadal symptoms (i.e., loss of libido, fatigue, depression, etc.) and upon investigation his total and free Testosterone levels were 71 ng/dl and 29 pg/ml respectively. (The reference ranges were 260-1000 ng/dl and 34-194 pg/ml, by the way.)
He was then given 100 mg of clomiphene for 5 days and reevaluated 2 weeks later. He reported an improvement in mood, energy, and libido and his total Testosterone was 828 ng/dl. However, after a follow up 2 months later, his symptoms had returned and his total Testosterone concentration was 301 ng/dl. In other words, he suffered a relapse.
They then gave the man 100 mg per day for 2 months and then reevaluated his blood work. They found his total Testosterone was 705 ng/dl and no relapse occurred in subsequent blood work. A similar case reported restoration of the HPTA using the same dosage of clomiphene over a 5 month period.
Anecdotally, I receive many letters from people explaining that they were feeling great when using clomiphene the first 2-4 weeks after their cycle, but seemed to suffer dramatic drops in terms of body composition, mood, energy levels, etc, thereafter.
My guess is that we've been underestimating the amount of time it takes to recover, even when using compounds like clomiphene. Granted, this probably can't be applied across the board as we have to take in many individual factors including what particular androgens the person was using, dosages, length of time, etc., but extended use of the drug seems to be the way to go. (1-2)
Phreezer said:
Last edited: