Shrinkage
- Thread starter BigCaBoi
- Start date
01dragonslayer
Member
Tell him he's wasting his time and money. No flame, but thats an absolutely worthless cycle. The nolva may help, but he should be taking anti-e regardless because of dbol's highly aromatistic properties. Tell him to stop the dbol, start some clomid, and explain to him that needles are our friends. Good luck.BigCaBoi said:
01dragonslayer
Member
I hate to say this bro, but if he's not ready for needles......than he's not ready for anabolic steroids. All oral cycles are not the way ta go. They are way too heptoxic and are much less effective than injectables.BigCaBoi said:
01dragonslayer
Member
S
swoool
Guest
My very first cycle was a D-Bol only cycle and it worked great for me.His dose is a little low but it will give him a boost.I would'nt recommend doing all oral cycles but for a first it's not bad.
swoool
swoool
organdoner
New member
nice post. saying an oral cycle is a waste is outdated way of thinking. i know plenty who use orals (a-50/winny) and look good. not great. we all respond differently so it is perfectly propper for a newbie to use orals. the good thing is through trial and error he will find he wants to go to the next level and ultimately like lots of us will inject. i started using an oral cycle. scared of needles. eventually you find it is nothing to be scared of. less dangerous than unprotected sex or bungie jumping. what i'm saying is let him do it. as the results disapate he'll be more than willing to jump in the water and do a real cycle. he has the benefit of having you there to help him and the bros on this board to guide him along. as i look around he has everything he needs right here. best of all the bros call it like it is giving him straight answers and no BS opinions. he'll be fine. nut shrinkage is common so i';ve learned to cycle around compounds that cause problems.
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I've seen lots of guys run oral only cycle with decent results...Do I recommend them? Not particularly, but they can be fairly safe if you don't do it too long.
With respect to testicular shrinkage... Nolva isn't really going to do anything. The reason his nuts are shrinking is because his body has stoped producing testosterone, not so much because of an estrogen imbalance that would necessitate Nolvadex.
HCG is pretty much the only thing that really stimulates the lydig cells, and helps bring the boys back to size. Clomid can also stimulate the testes to help them start producing estrogen again.
A mild oral only cycle that can yield somewhat decent results is 30-40mg ED for 4-6 weeks.. However this is long enough to shut down the bodies production of testosterone so PCT will be necessary.
With respect to testicular shrinkage... Nolva isn't really going to do anything. The reason his nuts are shrinking is because his body has stoped producing testosterone, not so much because of an estrogen imbalance that would necessitate Nolvadex.
HCG is pretty much the only thing that really stimulates the lydig cells, and helps bring the boys back to size. Clomid can also stimulate the testes to help them start producing estrogen again.
A mild oral only cycle that can yield somewhat decent results is 30-40mg ED for 4-6 weeks.. However this is long enough to shut down the bodies production of testosterone so PCT will be necessary.
BigCaBoi
Donating Member
Phreezer said:
Makes sense when you break it down like that. So does he need to wait till the end of the cycle to start the PCT. Will clomid have any effect on his test levels while on cycle? Obviously HCG won't work since he is afraid of the needle. Or is there HCG that can be taken Oral?
loudog said:
Date: 03/15/03 11:40 PM
Author: Phreezer
Subject: Post cycle therapy
Now, I don't want to get into ANOTHER big debate on HCG admistration, but of all the posts I've seen about it the one that sticks out in my mind the most, and offers the most credibility is by Hogg. From my own experience I've run HCG anywhere from 7 - 10 days out and had very good results. So I'm inclined not to believe some of the posts that say take HCG two weeks or ten days BEFORE your last shot. However, those guys that say to start ten days before your last shot, have obviously had good results doing it their way...SO the question thats been floating around the board lately...Who is Right? Two weeks before last shot? Ten days before Last shot? Day after your last shot? ten days after your last shot?
Apparently there is some kind of window here that allows for a somewhat larger error curve with HCG. Optimally you want to recover from testicular atrophy and have testosterone suppression end corresponding with the time that natural testosterone production comes back online. So from doing a great deal of studying on my own, and reading over the other guys posts, I start HCG administration the Day AFTER my last shot. (Ultimately I don't think you are going to be wrong if you wait a week) With the different opinions (that are adamant) there has to be a greater window for HCG administration than was once believed...
1,000IU's ED for Ten days STARTING the day after my last shot.
A lot of the timing with HCG has a great deal to do with what form of aas you are using..It would take too long to get into everything (you can easily do a search and find out) but with simple testosterone there are a lot of blood level calculators that can make the work a lot easier...
Since Test is pretty much test. I'm making a guess (a fairly educated guess) as to the time the test will clear and how long it will take to recover from testicular atrophy.
Now [Since your my size], I'm saying to run 1000IU's ed for ten days starting the day after your last shot.If this is your first time using HCG I would suggest 500Iu's ED for your first time...Once you get more experienced you'll know if 500IU's is enough for you, or if it doesn't really do much and then you can up your dosage to 1000IU's.
the reason I say to start off with 500IU's ED for first time us is because HCG can desensitise your Leydig cells,,,then you'll be on HRT full time for the rest of your life (Hello Viagra) There isn't really a reason to use more than necessary here. HCG is great at bringing the boys back to full size, but like anything else, too much can seriously harm you..
But you say "Phreezer, why 1000IU's, I see a lot of people say that they only do 500IU's?" Well, I've always done a 1000, and a 1000 works for me, So if it ain't broke, I don't need to fix it. Since your pretty much the same size as I am, I am recommending you do the same amount as me. Now, some guys do respond well to 500IU's..I don't know, I can only speak for myself and you may respond nicely to 500IU's ED and your boys may drop back down to their full size off of that amount...This is something only you can know, and something your going to have to find out on your own.
WRT to injection sites, HCG can be administered SubQ or IM, I always go subQ for the simple convenience of it. Hogg suggests that you go IM because of absorption time. (if your only getting 1000IU's per ML I think IM is the way to go) So if you choose to go IM then Delts, glutes and quads should be just fine for your injections. You'll be using a slin pin (most likely) so there's no real pain involved....If you choose to go subQ a good place is just to pinch a little bit of fat around your navel and inject there (you'll feel a slightly warm sensation) love handles are also a good place (Just like if you were shooting insulin)..
The time of day doesn't really matter, I prefer to keep a consistent injection schedule. Say I do my first shot in the am, in all likely hood I will continue all my shots in the am..and the same with pm shots. However if you miss a shot in the morning it's perfectly fine to do your next shot in the evening, it's what ever you decide.
I've done Clomid on the same day I've started HCG. I've started clomid when I finished HCG. If I don't do clomid on the same day I start HCG I'll do Nolvadex..Although I would have to think arimidex may be better than Nolvadex after learning that arimidex increases IGF-1 levels. But I always keep Nolvadex on hand because I'm old school and I'm scared of Gyno. And Nolvadex has worked for me in the past to stop gyno...Again, if it ain't broke, don't fuck with it!
HCG: 1000IU's Day After last AAS shot. Run for Ten days with Nolvadex @ 20mg ED throughout, if itchy or painful nipps start to appear try uping that dosage to 40mg ED or all they way up to 80mg ED.
Now I'm an old school clomid administrator also....If it ain't broke, (you allready know the second part of that) So I start high and taper off. A good time to take Clomid as at bed time.. this helps avoid a lot of the PMS feeling.. .you'll be asleep when these emotions peek...(If your pron to this that is... a lot of people take clomid and never experience any of the mood swings and wide range of emotions associated with clomid)
150mg Clomid day (Only)
day 2-8 100mg ED
day 9-16 50mg ED -
day 17-24 50mg EOD...
HCG 1000IU'S ED for ten days, 20mg Nolvadex ED along with the HCG, The day after my last HCG shot I start clomid therapy. This is just over a month long, so you should be able to start another cycle within 5-6 weeks after finishing your last. [assuming everything is back on line] If your doing longer cycles, you may need to administer clomid for another 10-21 days.
Phreezer
And here is the post from Hogg that I referenced...
Originally Posted by Hogg
You look at your cycle and try to assess your clearance period. Basically, if you are using say enanthate and eq, you can make a simple spreadsheet wherein you take each injection and cut it in half every 6 days.....so you would have a bunch of columns representing day 6,12,18,24,30,36,41 and the first entry under day 6 would be 500 corresponding to 500mg injected on day 6, under the day 12 column, the number would be 250, then 125 at 18, 62.5 at day 24, etc. The next line would be the next injection - say you injected another 500mg on day 12, so then day 18 would be 250, 125 on day 24 etc.
This is the simple way of calculating out how much gear is in your system and how long it will take to clear. You are basically treating test as a 6 day ester, some say 5, others say 7, split the difference and you will be pretty close.....we cant actually pinpoint the actual time since everybody metabolizes gear slightly different but certainly faster than rats for some strange reason.
Now, once you go through this process, you realize that if you were using a gram or more per week of test, it takes a little while for it to clear....actually, like 3-4 weeks to really clear. BUT, oddly enough, it seems that clearance occurs faster than this in reality. In practice, it would be difficult to determine the remainder of ester-bound test in vitro ...typically, they measure free T and T/epitestosterone which does not paint an accurate picture of the ester-bound testosterone remaining in your system.
So, on paper, 3-4 weeks, in practice, 'by feel', it seems like roughly 2-3 weeks for a gram of test. Ok, well, if we structure the clearance to cover such a discrepancy end to end, than we are likely to avoid the rut and retain a higher percentage of gains. So, let us say that we stop our cycle on week 16, then week 17 is the week to begin HCG. Personally, 500iu doesnt do a darn thing for me....I've tried it and perhaps for some, it works, for me, it takes 1000iu. After 5 days of using HCG, my testes drop and they begin to fill, by day 10, my testes are full and swinging. That is what HCG is suppose to do and that is why I upped from 500iu to 1000. Bear in mind, the 500iu number comes from an article on *-*** wherein **** ****** said "Take 500iu ed throughout your whole cycle" Well, somehow *** and people like ***** twisted that down to 2 weeks of 500iu. It doesnt work. Now, why not 1500iu ed??? Well, the initial contemporary estimates on the dosage that would cause damage to the leydig cells was 2000iu I believe, but then **** ****** lowered his number to 1500iu.....why? Because in truth, he really doesnt know. Bear in mind, a physician will consult the PDR and prescribe a 5000-7500iu shot to a man but usually, it is seldom that such is actually practiced....and HCG is seldom prescribed long term to increase T levels.....fertility is already shot in the ass and it becomes much simpler to prescribe testosterone gels and creams ...Anyway, so the 1000iu number is 'probably' safe.....I've used it and have had a response to both HCG and clomid after coming off numerous times which is a sign that my leydig cells are still operational....its anecdotal but I doubt you will find any AMA studies which establish the damage threshhold......hopefully I have argued my point for 1000iu adequately.
While running HCG for 10 days at 1000iu, we take nolvadex concurrently for 2 reasons - 1.) Since HCG aromatizes in the testes, we want to prevent gyno which can occur during HCG usage even with those who are able to take large amounts of test without anti-e and 2.) We want to shroud the htpa and block estrogen-induced inhibition.
The purpose of HCG is to stimulate the testes to full production by mimicking natural gonadotropin release. If the testes are atrophied, they tend to slowly regain the ability to produce normal levels of T with clomid alone. By using HCG, we are restoring the testes ability to resume full production....and our only problem remaining is to restore gonadotropin release after using HCG.
So,we run HCG for 10 days....we will come up 4 days short of a full 2 weeks. HCG is non-estrified and mimics LH. Its half life is thought to be hours though some cite the half life as being days. As the body typically secretes GnRH in pulses, numerous times throughout the day, it seems odd that LH would have a half life of days....simply put, it would mean that the body is capable of stacking up with endogenous T and we know that is not the case, we can crop endogenous T levels within hours by using certain substances. Anyway, so the 4 days is time for the HCG to clear and estrogen levels to subside. At the conclusion of this 4 day period, we are 3 weeks past our last injection of testosterone.....see how this all dovetails nicely together.
So, since we started the HCG week 17 and have completed the 10 days, plus the remaining 4 days of week 18, we are now on week 19. Time for clomid.
Personally, I use 100mg ed of clomid for 2 weeks, then 50mg ed for another 2 weeks. That stretches my total post cycle plan out to 6 weeks but my percentage of retained gains has been very good using this method. Since you ran clomid for weeks 19,20,21,and 22, you are now ready to think about either training naturally, or starting another cycle, or bridging. If you go completely natural, it is critical to use some type of cortisol blocker. Hulk raves about phosphatydine....or whatever the hell it is called. A light bridge of say 10mg ed of anavar or 200mg/wk of primobolan is another smart way to go. With such a light bridge, you can still maintain endogenous T production while warding off catabolism. GH and slin is another good idea though if you were going to conclude a steroid cycle and use GH during recovery, I'd start Gh and slin right after the HCG......absolutely.....because GH and insulin will not interfere with recovery of endogenous T and .....GH will cause you to retain a positive nitrogen balance, thereby warding off catabolism.
So that my friend is recovery in a nutshell
Originally Posted by Hogg
You look at your cycle and try to assess your clearance period. Basically, if you are using say enanthate and eq, you can make a simple spreadsheet wherein you take each injection and cut it in half every 6 days.....so you would have a bunch of columns representing day 6,12,18,24,30,36,41 and the first entry under day 6 would be 500 corresponding to 500mg injected on day 6, under the day 12 column, the number would be 250, then 125 at 18, 62.5 at day 24, etc. The next line would be the next injection - say you injected another 500mg on day 12, so then day 18 would be 250, 125 on day 24 etc.
This is the simple way of calculating out how much gear is in your system and how long it will take to clear. You are basically treating test as a 6 day ester, some say 5, others say 7, split the difference and you will be pretty close.....we cant actually pinpoint the actual time since everybody metabolizes gear slightly different but certainly faster than rats for some strange reason.
Now, once you go through this process, you realize that if you were using a gram or more per week of test, it takes a little while for it to clear....actually, like 3-4 weeks to really clear. BUT, oddly enough, it seems that clearance occurs faster than this in reality. In practice, it would be difficult to determine the remainder of ester-bound test in vitro ...typically, they measure free T and T/epitestosterone which does not paint an accurate picture of the ester-bound testosterone remaining in your system.
So, on paper, 3-4 weeks, in practice, 'by feel', it seems like roughly 2-3 weeks for a gram of test. Ok, well, if we structure the clearance to cover such a discrepancy end to end, than we are likely to avoid the rut and retain a higher percentage of gains. So, let us say that we stop our cycle on week 16, then week 17 is the week to begin HCG. Personally, 500iu doesnt do a darn thing for me....I've tried it and perhaps for some, it works, for me, it takes 1000iu. After 5 days of using HCG, my testes drop and they begin to fill, by day 10, my testes are full and swinging. That is what HCG is suppose to do and that is why I upped from 500iu to 1000. Bear in mind, the 500iu number comes from an article on *-*** wherein **** ****** said "Take 500iu ed throughout your whole cycle" Well, somehow *** and people like ***** twisted that down to 2 weeks of 500iu. It doesnt work. Now, why not 1500iu ed??? Well, the initial contemporary estimates on the dosage that would cause damage to the leydig cells was 2000iu I believe, but then **** ****** lowered his number to 1500iu.....why? Because in truth, he really doesnt know. Bear in mind, a physician will consult the PDR and prescribe a 5000-7500iu shot to a man but usually, it is seldom that such is actually practiced....and HCG is seldom prescribed long term to increase T levels.....fertility is already shot in the ass and it becomes much simpler to prescribe testosterone gels and creams ...Anyway, so the 1000iu number is 'probably' safe.....I've used it and have had a response to both HCG and clomid after coming off numerous times which is a sign that my leydig cells are still operational....its anecdotal but I doubt you will find any AMA studies which establish the damage threshhold......hopefully I have argued my point for 1000iu adequately.
While running HCG for 10 days at 1000iu, we take nolvadex concurrently for 2 reasons - 1.) Since HCG aromatizes in the testes, we want to prevent gyno which can occur during HCG usage even with those who are able to take large amounts of test without anti-e and 2.) We want to shroud the htpa and block estrogen-induced inhibition.
The purpose of HCG is to stimulate the testes to full production by mimicking natural gonadotropin release. If the testes are atrophied, they tend to slowly regain the ability to produce normal levels of T with clomid alone. By using HCG, we are restoring the testes ability to resume full production....and our only problem remaining is to restore gonadotropin release after using HCG.
So,we run HCG for 10 days....we will come up 4 days short of a full 2 weeks. HCG is non-estrified and mimics LH. Its half life is thought to be hours though some cite the half life as being days. As the body typically secretes GnRH in pulses, numerous times throughout the day, it seems odd that LH would have a half life of days....simply put, it would mean that the body is capable of stacking up with endogenous T and we know that is not the case, we can crop endogenous T levels within hours by using certain substances. Anyway, so the 4 days is time for the HCG to clear and estrogen levels to subside. At the conclusion of this 4 day period, we are 3 weeks past our last injection of testosterone.....see how this all dovetails nicely together.
So, since we started the HCG week 17 and have completed the 10 days, plus the remaining 4 days of week 18, we are now on week 19. Time for clomid.
Personally, I use 100mg ed of clomid for 2 weeks, then 50mg ed for another 2 weeks. That stretches my total post cycle plan out to 6 weeks but my percentage of retained gains has been very good using this method. Since you ran clomid for weeks 19,20,21,and 22, you are now ready to think about either training naturally, or starting another cycle, or bridging. If you go completely natural, it is critical to use some type of cortisol blocker. Hulk raves about phosphatydine....or whatever the hell it is called. A light bridge of say 10mg ed of anavar or 200mg/wk of primobolan is another smart way to go. With such a light bridge, you can still maintain endogenous T production while warding off catabolism. GH and slin is another good idea though if you were going to conclude a steroid cycle and use GH during recovery, I'd start Gh and slin right after the HCG......absolutely.....because GH and insulin will not interfere with recovery of endogenous T and .....GH will cause you to retain a positive nitrogen balance, thereby warding off catabolism.
So that my friend is recovery in a nutshell
I don't know where you heard that bs about HCG fina... but it's nothing more than that....HCG for when your bodies receptors quite working? That is not even close to how hcg works... HCG is not an aromotose inhibitor nor is it an anti-estrogen..
apparently, there a great many of you guys who need to do a quite a bit more research..
I would advise searching pubmed, medscape, and medline.... There you will find exactly how these drugs work in the body..and what applications they may be used for.
http://search.medscape.com/px/mscpsearch?QueryText=HCG&searchfor=Clinical&cid=med
apparently, there a great many of you guys who need to do a quite a bit more research..
I would advise searching pubmed, medscape, and medline.... There you will find exactly how these drugs work in the body..and what applications they may be used for.
http://search.medscape.com/px/mscpsearch?QueryText=HCG&searchfor=Clinical&cid=med
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