Basically 2 choices. Buy an empty vial and inject into it.
Or just preload in syringes, recap and keep in fridge..............11
HCG use and PCT IMO
- Thread starter Eleven11
- Start date
Basically 2 choices. Buy an empty vial and inject into it.
Or just preload in syringes, recap and keep in fridge..............11
Isme1977
New member
Everything Im writing here is based on my personal opinion from info Ive read and from personal trial and error.
Ive done many cycles that did not include HCG in my early days, hell I didn't even know what PCT was. This was WAY before the internet so all my info was from freinds and the few books that were around.
I've done cycles that ended with just using HCG the 2wks after my last testE shot and saw results from that(1,000ius 2xwk/ 2wks). IMO never go over 2,000ius per week.
But about 3yrs ago I started using small amounts of HCG throughout the cycle with much better results. The theory behind this is to give constant stimulation throughout the cycle and not let your own test production stop, or at least minimize it. Ive also noticed my sex drive stayed constant while on HCG even when using Tren or Npp/Deca and doing very long cycles. This is without a doubt the best way to run it and IMO leads to better overall gains, reason is not only are you using artificial Test/AAS but you are still producing your own, to me this makes since.
There are 2 ways to use this method. note: always use the LEAST amount that you can get results from.
1) 250-300ius EOD starting after wk1 and continued through cycle and for 4-18days after last AAS shot depending on the ester length (prop 4.5days - testE 14days - test Cyp 18days). Always make the last HCG shot on day ester clears.
2) 500ius E5D starting after wk1 and (same as above)
Ive done both and really can't say one is better, with #2 you won't go through as many needlesbut both have worked well for me.
PCT ( post cycle therapy )
Key word here is POST, meaning after the cycle is over and that means after all AAS esters have cleared your system not after your final shot.
HCG IS NOT FOR PCT IT IS FOR PRE-PCT, the time during your cycle and after last shot of AAS while esters are clearing. PCT starts on DAY4 after your last HCG shot. The reason for this is when you inject HCG you will get a spike several hours after shot and then again 72 hours later, after this final spike is when you want to start your PCT. Again HCG is not used for PCT.
Other info you will need.
Always use Bac water to mix your HCG, it will last up to 60 days in the fridge when BW is used.
Always use an insulin needle for injecting, size of slinpin does not matter but I use 29g 1cc.
Now like I said this is my personal opinion on HCG.
Can you get by without HCG, sure.
Can you get by without PCT, sure
Can you build muscle without AAS, yes.
But if your going to spent your hard earned $$ on ASS, food and training then at least spend a little extra on trying to keep as much of those gains as possible and make recovery as easy as possible................11
Ok awsome reading right there, so now after the last hcg shot 4 days later start the pct. So is this where the clomid would come in and noveldex? What if i am taking noveldex through out my cycle to combat the gyno , then just keep running it until end of my pct ? SO my pct should consist of noveldex and clomid anything else?
yes this is when you start your PCT, clomid/nolva is fine. I have also used IGF and GH with those two and also small doses of A-sin the 1st wk ??.
If your running nolva during your cycle then yes continue for PCT. Nolva during your cycle has a different effect than during PCT after Test has cleared your system but Id bump it up to 40mg the first 2wks of PCT then down to 20mg for 3-4 more wks. Clomid I only use 50mg for 4wks. Ive used higher amounts but now believe that is not needed and don't see sides at 50mg.............11
Isme1977
New member
Great thanks for the quick reply.
Solo48
New member
Good advice for a youngster of 46 or so!
I might add to continue using adex or whatever AI you've got going during your immediate post-cycle, pre-PCT HCG phase since HCG will increase estro as well.
Your statement to never go over 2000iu/wk of HCG is subjective (not scientific) but it is good one to make on the side of caution. However it seems to me that in stubborn case of testicular shrinkage, one may exceed what caution warrants. I have done 1000iu/ED for 10 days immediate post-cycle twice (first one out of ignorance, second one for the libido blast), but now I realize I am seriously endangering my leydig's cells, especially if I've been using it during cycle as well.
Solo
I might add to continue using adex or whatever AI you've got going during your immediate post-cycle, pre-PCT HCG phase since HCG will increase estro as well.
Your statement to never go over 2000iu/wk of HCG is subjective (not scientific) but it is good one to make on the side of caution. However it seems to me that in stubborn case of testicular shrinkage, one may exceed what caution warrants. I have done 1000iu/ED for 10 days immediate post-cycle twice (first one out of ignorance, second one for the libido blast), but now I realize I am seriously endangering my leydig's cells, especially if I've been using it during cycle as well.
Solo
Good advice for a youngster of 46 or so!
I might add to continue using adex or whatever AI you've got going during your immediate post-cycle, pre-PCT HCG phase since HCG will increase estro as well.
Your statement to never go over 2000iu/wk of HCG is subjective (not scientific) but it is good one to make on the side of caution. However it seems to me that in stubborn case of testicular shrinkage, one may exceed what caution warrants. I have done 1000iu/ED for 10 days immediate post-cycle twice (first one out of ignorance, second one for the libido blast), but now I realize I am seriously endangering my leydig's cells, especially if I've been using it during cycle as well.
Solo
I read that many yrs ago in the in the Anabolic reference guide 6th issue.
and have just stuck with that. Back then Id mostly do (2) 1000iu shots per wk starting 1wk before cycle ended then 2wks after. Back then I only used sust or testE.............11
So if you are going to use bac water you dont use the solvent? Lets say u have a 5000 iu amp, you mix with 10ml bac water in a new vial so you get 500iu per ml. Does that sound right.
Double
New member
What??? Why wouldn't you use the solvent? Its there for a purpose.
To answer your question...yes you would get 500iu per ml. If I were you I would use slin pins and dilute with 1ml or 2ml. With 1ml you would get 500iu for 10iu (the ten mark) on a slin pin. With 2ml you would get 500iu for 20iu (twenty mark) on a slin pin. Remember on a 100iu (1ml or 1cc) slin pin, every tick is 2ius; and on a 50iu (1/2ml or .5cc) slin pin, every tick is 1iu. Good luck
The "solvent" is just water and the HCG will not last as long with it. Bac water is your best option. And yes with a 1cc slinpin if you put 1cc BW into 5,000iu HCG p0wder at the 10mark will be 500iu HCG............11
Stansfield
New member
is there much difference in using 250iu 2x a week rather than taking 500iu 2x a week?
S
shrpskn
Guest
Agreed...the HCG holds up for up to 30 days when reconstituted with BW rather than the solvent (water) it often comes with...got to be kept refrigerated tho...
Respect,
Alright, going to chime into this thread for the first time with a few questions for everyone....
First up, getting ready ready to run cycle here:
1-4 Thai Pink Dbols 30mg ED
1-14 Iranian or Schering Test E 500mg a week
PCT will be Clomid/Nolva
100/50
75/50
50/25
50/25
Now I wanted to try out HCG with this cycle, so I went ahead and grabbed some a few weeks back. I got the Pregnyl pack, 3amps + 3 solvent amps. Now from what I'm reading the jist of it is to toss the solvent amps off the bat since I'm going to use bac water.
Now I've got 3 amps each @ 1500 iu (curious where are people get 5000iu amps of hcg? I only had option of these 1500iu ones) anyways.....
So I figure 4500 IU's is clearly not going to last me a 14 week cycle, so I can either run it till I runout... or cut it down a lot and try to make it last as long as I can... what's everyones take on this?
How should I go about splitting it up so I have enough to drag me 10-12 weeks... Im looking to take between 300-500 a week... was thinking 250 ED or 300 once a week?... Any takes anyone?
Thanks so much in advance for your time
First up, getting ready ready to run cycle here:
1-4 Thai Pink Dbols 30mg ED
1-14 Iranian or Schering Test E 500mg a week
PCT will be Clomid/Nolva
100/50
75/50
50/25
50/25
Now I wanted to try out HCG with this cycle, so I went ahead and grabbed some a few weeks back. I got the Pregnyl pack, 3amps + 3 solvent amps. Now from what I'm reading the jist of it is to toss the solvent amps off the bat since I'm going to use bac water.
Now I've got 3 amps each @ 1500 iu (curious where are people get 5000iu amps of hcg? I only had option of these 1500iu ones) anyways.....
So I figure 4500 IU's is clearly not going to last me a 14 week cycle, so I can either run it till I runout... or cut it down a lot and try to make it last as long as I can... what's everyones take on this?
How should I go about splitting it up so I have enough to drag me 10-12 weeks... Im looking to take between 300-500 a week... was thinking 250 ED or 300 once a week?... Any takes anyone?
Thanks so much in advance for your time
I have a script for HCG and the most recent stuff I received from my pharmacy came with (2) 10ml vials, (1) ****** and (1) Bac Water (10mls). The instructions also state that when refridgerated it has a 60 day shelf life.
Only you can answer that, ALWAYS try to use least amount possible, I really dont think you'll need 500iu 2xwk, maybe 1xwk. Try 250iu 2xwk and you should be fine IMO.......11
itzstatic
Now I've got 3 amps each @ 1500 iu (curious where are people get 5000iu amps of hcg? I only had option of these 1500iu ones) anyways.....
If you cannot get anymore then I would wait till the end of your cycle. Do 1 amp the last wk of cycle and the other 2 the 2wks after last test shot, split them into 2shots per wk. But I really would try to get more and use thru cycle, but I wouldn't use what you have now and not have any at the end when you'll need it most to set up your PCT..........11
sdmlsu1 Quote:
I have a script for HCG and the most recent stuff I received from my pharmacy came with (2) 10ml vials, (1) ****** and (1) Bac Water (10mls). The instructions also state that when refridgerated it has a 60 day shelf life.
That is correct, it is 60days............11
Double
New member
1. HCG has been used for years as a PCT staple. So it can be part of PCT or for PCT. Just because some feel it works better during cycle doesn't mean that its not for PCT. I've used both methods before and can tell you that they both work. When I have HCG readily available at my disposal I personally use it during. I do feel that it does help you recover faster this way. Now that is just my personal experience as well as many others. Both methods are currently being used by clinics, so to say "its not for PCT" is wrong. You should not run HCG alone PCT, you should use a SERM or AI for an ancillary. I personally like to use Nolva and Clomid, but if I had a choice I feel Nolva on its own does the job better than Clomid. This is personal preference I guess, as there is alot of people who swear by Clomid. The PoWeR PCT actually uses both too.
2. Also, I always use the solvent. Yes, BW does work, but a free solvent comes with it. Why not use it? I've kept reconstituted HCG refrigerated for months (in between cycles) and it worked perfectly fine. Now thats with the NaCl water it comes with.
3. To answer your question Eleven11, Organon puts out 5000iu amps (some of the sponsors I believe still carry them)and there is another company from China that does. Its in Chinese so I can't read what it says except for the "5000iu" part.
2. Also, I always use the solvent. Yes, BW does work, but a free solvent comes with it. Why not use it? I've kept reconstituted HCG refrigerated for months (in between cycles) and it worked perfectly fine. Now thats with the NaCl water it comes with.
3. To answer your question Eleven11, Organon puts out 5000iu amps (some of the sponsors I believe still carry them)and there is another company from China that does. Its in Chinese so I can't read what it says except for the "5000iu" part.
OK so discribe you PCT with HCG..........11
Double
New member
My PCT Protocol
I have used both HCG during cycle and after cycle. During seems to work a little bit better for me by being a smoother transition, but to say HCG can't be used or that its purpose isn't for PCT is wrong. Again, I think it is personal preference. If I run a long cycle I use HCG during, but if its a short one (8 weeks), then I will run it after my cycle. My short cycles usually consist of an oral and a short ester/another oral. I try to take liver values into account when I decide what orals to take, and pick mild ones orals. Now, you kind of know about how I cycle to understand where I come from. I do have bloodwork done before and after for my PSA (liver) liver.
Here is one sample of my protocol for HCG during PCT use. I have tried other standard basic HCG protocols, but this one I tweaked some for me and it is derived somewhat from the PoWeR PCT Program. I'll throw in the SERMs too.
HCG - Starts on last day of use/expected end of AAS lifespan.
Day 1: 1500iu (split into 750iu in the AM [IM] and 750iu in the PM [Sub-Q])
Day 5: 1000iu
Day 10: 1000iu
Day 16: 500iu (If needed I bump this up to 1000iu depending on atrophy, lack of libido, etc).
Serms - I use Nolva (Tamoxifen) and Clomid (Clomiphene) the day after my first HCG shot/when AAS have cleared.
Wk 1: Nolva = 40mg | Clomid = 50 mg
Wk 2: Nolva = 30mg | Clomid = 50mg
Wk 3: Nolva = 20mg | Clomid = 50mg
Wk 4: Nolva = 10mg | Clomid = 50mg
Wk 5: Nolva = 10mg | Clomid = Discontinue (I don't run Clomid for longer than 30 days, because over time it can desensitize Leydig cells/decrease responsiveness)
Wk 6: Nolva = 10mg | Clomid = Discontinued
Side Notes:
1. If I don't feel the testes are at a comfortable level, I might opt for an additional week of Nolva. If that would not work I would most likely seek medical advice through an endocrinologist/hormone specialist. So far it has never been the case.
2. From what I know there is no set time for desensitization with Clomid. Therefore, I don't run it for longer than a month, which should be a pretty safe bet. The study in Note 4 (below) states a decrease in LH responsiveness at the 6 week mark, thats why I stop after 1 month.
3. I use Tamoxifen in higher doses only in efforts and hopes to increase LH responsiveness faster. Based on science no more than 20mg/day is necessary. There is no real evidence though that supports my idea. It is a personal decision. This study shows there is no real evidence:
Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men. Andrologia. 1985 Jul-Aug;17(4):369-78. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/..._DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1 &log$=relatedarticles&dbfrom=pubmed
4. Here is a link to a study that shows "prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL":
Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. (Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/640052
5. I also include Proviron (Mesterone) at some point during PCT. It is usally when testicular atrophy has resolved itself and I start with 25mg/day and increase it to 50mg after 1 week of no atrophy with the Proviron treatment. I run 50mg/day for a month, drop back down to 25mg/day for a week, then I alternate 25mg EOD with 10mg Nolva ED. I do this because its understood that androgenicity is necessary for sperm production (spermatogenesis).
I don't recommend others trying this. Actual scientific data demonstrating the effectiveness is somewhat lacking although there is some evidence. Also, there are not many successful protocols out there to be found. This is a personal decision on my part in efforts to produce more dense, mature, and total sperm.
For me running HCG during cycle works better, less hassle, and less tedious. This is what I do when I run a short cycle and use HCG post cycle. It can be alot more work and more stuff to remember. I also didn't include any peptides, such as IGF-1Lr3, MGF, etc.
A more basic HCG protocol that has worked before in the past, but not as smooth of a transition (but a lot better than a SERM on its own or with another SERM, ie. Clomid and Nolva together) is to do this exact layout up to week 4. This means no week 5-6 and no Proviron.
NOW THIS WORKS FOR ME. I DON"T EXPECT IT TO WORK FOR OTHERS THE SAME. THIS IS MY DISCLAIMER.
I have used both HCG during cycle and after cycle. During seems to work a little bit better for me by being a smoother transition, but to say HCG can't be used or that its purpose isn't for PCT is wrong. Again, I think it is personal preference. If I run a long cycle I use HCG during, but if its a short one (8 weeks), then I will run it after my cycle. My short cycles usually consist of an oral and a short ester/another oral. I try to take liver values into account when I decide what orals to take, and pick mild ones orals. Now, you kind of know about how I cycle to understand where I come from. I do have bloodwork done before and after for my PSA (liver) liver.
Here is one sample of my protocol for HCG during PCT use. I have tried other standard basic HCG protocols, but this one I tweaked some for me and it is derived somewhat from the PoWeR PCT Program. I'll throw in the SERMs too.
HCG - Starts on last day of use/expected end of AAS lifespan.
Day 1: 1500iu (split into 750iu in the AM [IM] and 750iu in the PM [Sub-Q])
Day 5: 1000iu
Day 10: 1000iu
Day 16: 500iu (If needed I bump this up to 1000iu depending on atrophy, lack of libido, etc).
Serms - I use Nolva (Tamoxifen) and Clomid (Clomiphene) the day after my first HCG shot/when AAS have cleared.
Wk 1: Nolva = 40mg | Clomid = 50 mg
Wk 2: Nolva = 30mg | Clomid = 50mg
Wk 3: Nolva = 20mg | Clomid = 50mg
Wk 4: Nolva = 10mg | Clomid = 50mg
Wk 5: Nolva = 10mg | Clomid = Discontinue (I don't run Clomid for longer than 30 days, because over time it can desensitize Leydig cells/decrease responsiveness)
Wk 6: Nolva = 10mg | Clomid = Discontinued
Side Notes:
1. If I don't feel the testes are at a comfortable level, I might opt for an additional week of Nolva. If that would not work I would most likely seek medical advice through an endocrinologist/hormone specialist. So far it has never been the case.
2. From what I know there is no set time for desensitization with Clomid. Therefore, I don't run it for longer than a month, which should be a pretty safe bet. The study in Note 4 (below) states a decrease in LH responsiveness at the 6 week mark, thats why I stop after 1 month.
3. I use Tamoxifen in higher doses only in efforts and hopes to increase LH responsiveness faster. Based on science no more than 20mg/day is necessary. There is no real evidence though that supports my idea. It is a personal decision. This study shows there is no real evidence:
Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men. Andrologia. 1985 Jul-Aug;17(4):369-78. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/..._DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1 &log$=relatedarticles&dbfrom=pubmed
4. Here is a link to a study that shows "prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL":
Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. (Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/640052
5. I also include Proviron (Mesterone) at some point during PCT. It is usally when testicular atrophy has resolved itself and I start with 25mg/day and increase it to 50mg after 1 week of no atrophy with the Proviron treatment. I run 50mg/day for a month, drop back down to 25mg/day for a week, then I alternate 25mg EOD with 10mg Nolva ED. I do this because its understood that androgenicity is necessary for sperm production (spermatogenesis).
I don't recommend others trying this. Actual scientific data demonstrating the effectiveness is somewhat lacking although there is some evidence. Also, there are not many successful protocols out there to be found. This is a personal decision on my part in efforts to produce more dense, mature, and total sperm.
For me running HCG during cycle works better, less hassle, and less tedious. This is what I do when I run a short cycle and use HCG post cycle. It can be alot more work and more stuff to remember. I also didn't include any peptides, such as IGF-1Lr3, MGF, etc.
A more basic HCG protocol that has worked before in the past, but not as smooth of a transition (but a lot better than a SERM on its own or with another SERM, ie. Clomid and Nolva together) is to do this exact layout up to week 4. This means no week 5-6 and no Proviron.
NOW THIS WORKS FOR ME. I DON"T EXPECT IT TO WORK FOR OTHERS THE SAME. THIS IS MY DISCLAIMER.
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I like your PCT layout (clomid/nolva) and if this works for you thats great. But from everything Ive read I would not do it this way, running HCG with nolva/clomid AFTER AAS has clearded is not recommended but the bottom line here is you've takin the time to try something different and it has worked for you, same with me if I read something that makes since to me I will give it a try and if works I'll stick with it till something better comes along. Like I said in my initial post this is IMO on how to use HCG and your opinion is welcome................11