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Old 04-29-2008, 03:43 PM
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Default HCG use and PCT IMO

Everything Im writing here is based on my personal opinion from info Ive read and from personal trial and error.
Ive done many cycles that did not include HCG in my early days, hell I didn't even know what PCT was. This was WAY before the internet so all my info was from freinds and the few books that were around.
I've done cycles that ended with just using HCG the 2wks after my last testE shot and saw results from that(1,000ius 2xwk/ 2wks). IMO never go over 2,000ius per week.
But in 2005 I started using small amounts of HCG throughout the cycle with much better results. The theory behind this is to give constant stimulation throughout the cycle and not let your own test production stop, or at least minimize it. Ive also noticed my sex drive stayed constant while on HCG even when using Tren or Npp/Deca and doing very long cycles. This is without a doubt the best way to run it and IMO leads to better overall gains, reason is not only are you using artificial Test/AAS but you are still producing your own, to me this makes since.
There are 3 ways to use this method. note: always use the LEAST amount that you can get results from.

1) 100ius ED starting after wk1 and continued through cycle and for 4-18days after last AAS shot depending on the ester length (prop 3days - testE 14days - test Cyp 18days). Always make the last HCG shot on day ester clears.

2) 250-300ius EOD or 2xwk and (same as above)

3) 500ius E5D starting after wk1 and (same as above)

Ive done all and really can't say one is better, with #2-3 you won't go through as many needles but all have worked well for me.

PCT ( post cycle therapy )

Key word here is POST, meaning after the cycle is over and that means after all AAS esters have cleared your system not after your final shot.
HCG IS NOT FOR PCT IT IS FOR PRE-PCT, the time during your cycle and after last shot of AAS while esters are clearing. PCT starts on DAY4 after your last HCG shot. The reason for this is when you inject HCG you will get a spike several hours after shot and then again 48-72 hours later, after this final spike is when you want to start your PCT. Again HCG is not used for PCT.

Most my PCTs have looked like this. Starting on day4 after last HCG shot. Start your clomid and nolva on the same day but always run your nolva at least a 1-2 wks longer
3-4wks of clomid @ 50mg ed (in my early days Ive used higher amounts but feel its not needed)
5-6wks of nolva @ 40mg ed 2wks and 20mg ed for remainder
IMO a PCT should last at least 4-6wks+
Also there seems to be great alternative to clomid/nolva these days, some are available here on OLM.

Here's another PCT that a member here uses with good success.

Now there's a couple different protocols in running toremifene. I like to run mine a little longer than some as I believe it is beneficial, also because of toremifene's safety profile. Also it has been determined that 120mg torem is roughly equivelent to 40mg nolvadex. Here's how I'm running mine.

week 1: 120mg
week 2: 120mg
week 3: 90mg
week 4: 90mg
week 5: 60mg
week 6: 60mg
week 7: 60mg

Hope this helps.

Nixon[/quote]


Other info you will need.
Always use Bac water to mix your HCG, it will last up to 60 days in the fridge when BW is used. I never read any reason to store HCG p0wder in fridge. A cool dark place is fine.
With smaller amps/vials of under 5000ius ie 1500iu amps the water that comes with it is fine(up to 30days)
Always use an insulin needle for injecting, size of slinpin does not matter but I use 29/30g 1cc.


MIXING
Use the bacwater, draw out 1cc BW(use a 1cc slinpin #10-100) and slowly add to p0wder and gently swirl till mixed. Then draw out mixture(if in an amp. If already in a vial just refrigerate) with 1.5" needle and inject into vial or leave in syringe and refrigerate. If you add 1cc to 5000ius then every 10mark on your 1cc slinpin will be 500ius of HCG (use E5D) if you want to use 250ius EOD then mix 2cc's BW into p0wder and then every 10mark will have 250ius.

INJECTING
You can do either IM in small lean muscles like delts, tri's etc.
Or subQ between skin/fat and muscle. Pinch skin and pull up and inject HCG into open pocket between. Use a .5" insulin needle.
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Now like I said this is my personal opinion on HCG.
Can you get by without HCG, sure.
Can you get by without PCT, sure
Can you build muscle without AAS, yes.
But if your going to spent your hard earned $$ on AAS, food and training then at least spend a little extra on trying to keep as much of those gains as possible and make recovery as easy as possible................11

This is where I originally got my HCG info from. He was member of a board I used to frequent and a TRT doctor

My PCT Protocol
Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.

Little HCG experiment I did

As most of you know I'm on testE and HCG year round along with other gear throughout the year.
The last couple years I've seen posts and read stuff about guys worrying or claiming that using HCG for long periods of time desensitizes you to HCG and will shut you down permanently.
I never believed this to be true especially at the low doses we use.
Recently I decided to do a little experiment on myself (love being a guinea pig)
Back in Oct I quit using HCG but of course stayed on gear, within a week my boys started to atrophy and stayed that while I was off, goal was 3 months. After I was convinced this theory was false I got back on using 500ius EOD for 4 shots then back on my normal E5D rutine. After my 3rd shot my boys were back at full speed and remain that way.
My sticky is based on using small amounts of HCG throughout your cycle no matter the length right up to PCT but for you guys that are on full time IMO you have nothing to worry about using HCG yr round.
I do believe that if you use high doses 2,000ius + per week for a very long time this could be true,,,,, maybe??? never had no need to try that and that's not what we use HCG for.
We use small amounts during cycle to help minimize shutdown and help speed up recovery and I'm sure in my mind we don't have anything to worry about as far as desensitization goes.
Hope this helps and after this gets seen I'll copy and paste it into my sticky .............11
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Last edited by Eleven11 : 03-12-2014 at 01:23 PM. Reason: updating
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Old 04-29-2008, 04:06 PM
juicy_jj juicy_jj is offline
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good read. thanks bro
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Old 04-29-2008, 05:50 PM
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thank you excellent post hope a few of the rookies or stubborn vets try it out and see for themselves
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Old 04-29-2008, 06:08 PM
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Hmmmm, listen to the OLD MAN
Good post ,,,,,,,,,,,,11
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Old 04-29-2008, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Now like I said this is my personal opinion on HCG.
Can you get by without HCG, sure.
Can you get by without PCT, sure
Can you build muscle without AAS, yes.
But if your going to spent your hard earned $$ on ASS, food and training then at least spend a little extra on trying to keep as much of those gains as possible and make recovery as easy as possible................11
ohh how i love spending $$ on ASS .

great post ...................11 im a fan of riley also. haha.

Cheers!
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Old 04-29-2008, 07:38 PM
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Good post
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Old 04-29-2008, 07:43 PM
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I like the way u think 11. Id like to see ur PCT protocol as well.
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Old 04-29-2008, 09:01 PM
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Default HCG Recommended Dosing

HCG is best used in small frequent doses throughout the cycle and not during Post Cycle Therapy. I recommend HCG treatment begin during the second week of a cycle and end just before PCT starts. The dose one needs varies and can be adjusted mid cycle if necessary. Because leptin is a major inhibitor of gonadal function in men, men with higher body fat levels require larger doses of HCG to get the same effect.

Body Fat Percentage

<10%: 250-300 iu twice weekly
10-15%: 300-350 iu twice weekly
>15%: 350-500 iu twice weekly


If testicular atrophy begins to occur on your selected dose, simply raise yourself to the next bracket. It is better to not use more than you need if you plan to come off cycle eventually. Minor atrophy is quickly reversed with proper Post Cycle Therapy.

I generally recommend that you have Tamoxifen Citrate (aka Nolva) or Raloxifene Hydrochloride (aka Evista) available in case you develop signs of gynecomastia.
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Old 04-30-2008, 10:41 AM
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Good post...

I've found 50mg/ed of Proviron to be as effective if not more effective for me throughout a cycle...to each their own though...

I prefer to keep the HCG use to a minimum and at the end of a cycle/early-PCT as well...but that's just me.

Good post though, none the less.

Respect,
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Old 05-01-2008, 03:41 AM
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I have a script for the shit (HCG) but can rarely get it through my pharmacy because all these FAT DOCTORS writing off label scripts for people to lose weight. You would think people would just try eating right and exercising instead of cycling massive amounts of HCG to lose weight. I sure hope the manufacturing starts increasing to meet the demand. Of course I can buy it elsewhere, but it's nice to get (3) 10000iu vials/amps for 10 bucks through my insurance.
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Old 05-01-2008, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdmlsu1 View Post
I have a script for the shit (HCG) but can rarely get it through my pharmacy because all these FAT DOCTORS writing off label scripts for people to lose weight. You would think people would just try eating right and exercising instead of cycling massive amounts of HCG to lose weight. I sure hope the manufacturing starts increasing to meet the demand. Of course I can buy it elsewhere, but it's nice to get (3) 10000iu vials/amps for 10 bucks through my insurance.
I get a script for it as well and had a tough time finding it too. after about 10 calls to different pharmacys I finally found one with stock.
I didnt know that was why they are always backordered? HCG helps you lose weight??
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Old 05-01-2008, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franchize View Post
I get a script for it as well and had a tough time finding it too. after about 10 calls to different pharmacys I finally found one with stock.
I didnt know that was why they are always backordered? HCG helps you lose weight??
Supposedly that's the new craze. Some docs write it in large dosages to cycle the stuff for fat people. Google HCG for weight loss.

If the pharmacy takes insurance and is in the U.S. shoot me a pm, assuming you want to share.

Last edited by sdmlsu1 : 05-01-2008 at 10:49 AM. Reason: info
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Old 05-02-2008, 10:40 AM
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more of a reason to buy HCG
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Old 05-02-2008, 12:43 PM
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Curious what kind of pins are recommended for HCG? And something I've also been wondering do places like walmart sell alcohol wipes?
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Old 05-02-2008, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itzstatic View Post
Curious what kind of pins are recommended for HCG? And something I've also been wondering do places like walmart sell alcohol wipes?
insulin pins

all drug stores sell alcohol wipes, they are in the first aid sec.............11
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Old 05-02-2008, 05:37 PM
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yup insulin pins work great. I use a 31G and shoot it into the skin around my belly button. Alcohol wipe are a waste of money IMO just get some Isopropyl alcohol and some kleenex...way cheaper but i guess it's not a huge deal
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Old 05-02-2008, 06:09 PM
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I'm a firm believer in running hcg throughtout my cycles. Nice write up 11, thanks for posting.
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:12 PM
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I don't think it's a new thing. My dad said he was on a diet that included injecting something or other having to do with pregnant women's urine when I was a baby (30 or so years ago). I didn't volunteer my knowledge of what he was talking about but I knew it had to be hcg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdmlsu1 View Post
Supposedly that's the new craze. Some docs write it in large dosages to cycle the stuff for fat people. Google HCG for weight loss.

If the pharmacy takes insurance and is in the U.S. shoot me a pm, assuming you want to share.
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Old 05-02-2008, 09:42 PM
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Default Hmg

I believe HCG should be used in the middle week of a cycle also, atleast if its a cycle over 8 weeks. If possible, grab some HMG. HMG at 25 units a day for 14-16 days works great w/ half tab of bromo. Also some good pct stuff over the counter I hear but never tried it but do like Herbal Tongkat Ali at 800-1200-mgs a day...noticable difference in sex drive.
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Old 05-02-2008, 10:22 PM
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I have used the protocol advocated by Pirate (and 11), to good effect on a previous cycle. Hcg dosing isn't much more difficult than taking a pill. I am wondering though, last time I had ****** in a multi use vial, and I added the proper amount of bacteriostatic water, and stored it in the fridge. Wondering how you mix and store it when you get an amp of ****** and an amp of solvent. Once you break the tops off the amps, what is next? I can figure it out, but I am always open to the voice of experience.

Last edited by stonecold434 : 05-02-2008 at 10:23 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 05-03-2008, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stonecold434 View Post
I have used the protocol advocated by Pirate (and 11), to good effect on a previous cycle. Hcg dosing isn't much more difficult than taking a pill. I am wondering though, last time I had ****** in a multi use vial, and I added the proper amount of bacteriostatic water, and stored it in the fridge. Wondering how you mix and store it when you get an amp of ****** and an amp of solvent. Once you break the tops off the amps, what is next? I can figure it out, but I am always open to the voice of experience.
Basically 2 choices. Buy an empty vial and inject into it.
Or just preload in syringes, recap and keep in fridge..............11
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Old 05-04-2008, 01:38 AM
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Great post eleven.

I too use HCG throughout my cycle and I've done the every 5 days and the EOD method and both work great.

Regards................nf


P.S. Love your name. Read a interesting book called eleven eleven.
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Old 05-04-2008, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven11 View Post
Everything Im writing here is based on my personal opinion from info Ive read and from personal trial and error.
Ive done many cycles that did not include HCG in my early days, hell I didn't even know what PCT was. This was WAY before the internet so all my info was from freinds and the few books that were around.
I've done cycles that ended with just using HCG the 2wks after my last testE shot and saw results from that(1,000ius 2xwk/ 2wks). IMO never go over 2,000ius per week.
But about 3yrs ago I started using small amounts of HCG throughout the cycle with much better results. The theory behind this is to give constant stimulation throughout the cycle and not let your own test production stop, or at least minimize it. Ive also noticed my sex drive stayed constant while on HCG even when using Tren or Npp/Deca and doing very long cycles. This is without a doubt the best way to run it and IMO leads to better overall gains, reason is not only are you using artificial Test/AAS but you are still producing your own, to me this makes since.
There are 2 ways to use this method. note: always use the LEAST amount that you can get results from.

1) 250-300ius EOD starting after wk1 and continued through cycle and for 4-18days after last AAS shot depending on the ester length (prop 4.5days - testE 14days - test Cyp 18days). Always make the last HCG shot on day ester clears.

2) 500ius E5D starting after wk1 and (same as above)

Ive done both and really can't say one is better, with #2 you won't go through as many needles but both have worked well for me.

PCT ( post cycle therapy )

Key word here is POST, meaning after the cycle is over and that means after all AAS esters have cleared your system not after your final shot.
HCG IS NOT FOR PCT IT IS FOR PRE-PCT, the time during your cycle and after last shot of AAS while esters are clearing. PCT starts on DAY4 after your last HCG shot. The reason for this is when you inject HCG you will get a spike several hours after shot and then again 72 hours later, after this final spike is when you want to start your PCT. Again HCG is not used for PCT.

Other info you will need.
Always use Bac water to mix your HCG, it will last up to 60 days in the fridge when BW is used.
Always use an insulin needle for injecting, size of slinpin does not matter but I use 29g 1cc.

Now like I said this is my personal opinion on HCG.
Can you get by without HCG, sure.
Can you get by without PCT, sure
Can you build muscle without AAS, yes.
But if your going to spent your hard earned $$ on ASS, food and training then at least spend a little extra on trying to keep as much of those gains as possible and make recovery as easy as possible................11

Ok awsome reading right there, so now after the last hcg shot 4 days later start the pct. So is this where the clomid would come in and noveldex? What if i am taking noveldex through out my cycle to combat the gyno , then just keep running it until end of my pct ? SO my pct should consist of noveldex and clomid anything else?
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Old 05-05-2008, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by jasonisme1977 View Post
Ok awsome reading right there, so now after the last hcg shot 4 days later start the pct. So is this where the clomid would come in and noveldex? What if i am taking noveldex through out my cycle to combat the gyno , then just keep running it until end of my pct ? SO my pct should consist of noveldex and clomid anything else?
yes this is when you start your PCT, clomid/nolva is fine. I have also used IGF and GH with those two and also small doses of A-sin the 1st wk ??.
If your running nolva during your cycle then yes continue for PCT. Nolva during your cycle has a different effect than during PCT after Test has cleared your system but Id bump it up to 40mg the first 2wks of PCT then down to 20mg for 3-4 more wks. Clomid I only use 50mg for 4wks. Ive used higher amounts but now believe that is not needed and don't see sides at 50mg.............11
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Old 05-05-2008, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven11 View Post
yes this is when you start your PCT, clomid/nolva is fine. I have also used IGF and GH with those two and also small doses of A-sin the 1st wk ??.
If your running nolva during your cycle then yes continue for PCT. Nolva during your cycle has a different effect than during PCT after Test has cleared your system but Id bump it up to 40mg the first 2wks of PCT then down to 20mg for 3-4 more wks. Clomid I only use 50mg for 4wks. Ive used higher amounts but now believe that is not needed and don't see sides at 50mg.............11
Great thanks for the quick reply.
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