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Old 04-29-2008, 03:45 PM
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Default Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) use and Post Cycle Theropy (PCT)

Everything Im writing here is based on my personal opinion from info Ive read (from a HRT Doctor) and from personal trial and error.

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) in short help male athletes produce there own testosterone while on cycle, and recover more quickly after a cycle (For a full description go to Steroid profiles) It is a MUST USE DRUG IMO for ANY cycle short or long.

Ive done many cycles that did not include HCG in my early days, hell I didn't even know what PCT was. This was WAY before the Internet so all my info was from freinds and the few books that were around.
I've done cycles that ended with just using HCG the 2wks after my last testE shot and saw results from that(1,000ius 2xwk/ 2wks). IMO never go over 2,000ius per week.
But about 3yrs ago I started using small amounts of HCG throughout the cycle with much better results. The theory behind this is to give constant stimulation throughout the cycle and not let your own test production stop, or at least minimize it. Ive also noticed my sex drive stayed constant while on HCG even when using Tren or Npp/Deca and doing very long cycles. This is without a doubt the best way to run it and IMO leads to better overall gains, reason is not only are you using artificial Test/AAS but you are still producing your own, to me this makes since.
There are 3 ways to use this method. note: always use the LEAST amount that you can get results from.

1) 100ius ED starting after wk1 and continued through cycle and for 4-18days after last AAS shot depending on the ester length (prop 3days - testE 14days - test Cyp 18days sust250 21days). Always make the last HCG shot on day ester clears.

2) 250-300ius EOD and (same as above)

3) 500ius E5D starting after wk1 and (same as above)

Ive done all and really can't say one is better, with #2-3 you won't go through as many needles but all have worked well for me.

PCT ( post cycle therapy )

Key word here is POST, meaning after the cycle is over and that means after all AAS esters have cleared your system not after your final shot.
HCG IS NOT FOR PCT IT IS FOR PRE-PCT, the time during your cycle and after last shot of AAS while esters are clearing. PCT starts on DAY4 after your last HCG shot. The reason for this is when you inject HCG you will get a spike several hours after shot and then again 48-72 hours later, after this final spike is when you want to start your PCT. Again HCG is not used for PCT.

Most my PCTs have looked like this. Starting on day4 after last HCG shot
3-4wks of clomid @ 50mg ed (in my early days Ive used higher amounts but feel its not needed)
5-6wks of nolva @ 40mg ed 2wks and 20mg ed for remainder
IMO a PCT should last at least 4-6wks+
Also there seems to be great alternatives to clomid/nolva these days, some are available here on OLM.

Here's another PCT that a member here uses with good success.

Now there's a couple different protocols in running toremifene. I like to run mine a little longer than some as I believe it is beneficial, also because of toremifene's safety profile. Also it has been determined that 120mg torem is roughly equivelent to 40mg nolvadex. Here's how I'm running mine.

week 1: 120mg
week 2: 120mg
week 3: 90mg
week 4: 90mg
week 5: 60mg
week 6: 60mg
week 7: 60mg

Hope this helps.

Nixon[/quote]

Other info you will need.
Always use Bac water to mix your HCG, it will last up to 60 days in the fridge when BW is used. I never read any reason to store HCG p0wder in fridge. A cool dark place is fine.
Always use an insulin needle for injecting, size of slinpin does not matter but I use 29g 1cc.


MIXING
Use the bacwater, draw out 1cc BW (use a 1cc slinpin #10-100) and slowly add to p0wder and gently swirl till mixed. Then draw out mixture (if using an amp) with 1.5" needle and inject into vial or leave in syringe and refrigerate, if already in a vial simply refrigerate. If you add 1cc to 5000ius then every 10mark on your 1ccslinpin will be 500ius of HCG (use E5D) if you want to use 250ius EOD then mix 2ccs BW into p0wder and then every 10mark will have 250ius.

INJECTING
You can do either IM in small lean muscles like delts, tri's etc.
Or subQ between skin/fat and muscle. Pinch skin and pull up and inject HCG into open pocket between. Use a .5" insulin needle.

Now like I said this is my personal opinion on HCG/PCT.
Can you get by without HCG, sure.
Can you get by without PCT, sure
Can you build muscle without AAS, yes.
But if your going to spend your hard earned $$ on AAS, food and training then at least spend a little extra on trying to keep as much of those gains as possible and make recovery as easy as possible................11


This is where I originally got my HCG info from. He was member of a board I used to frequent and a TRT doctor

My PCT Protocol
Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.

Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!

Here it is:

I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.

Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.

The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.

I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.

I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).

All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
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Last edited by Eleven11 : 07-11-2011 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 01-05-2009, 03:40 AM
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ive used HCG during a cycle with good results. it was 500iu E4D. Ive used it in PCT also, for 3 weeks at 500IU EOD, then ran the pct with nolva and aromasin for 3-4 more weeks. Worked good there to. Even tho i will never to tren again (makes me NUTZ) i would use HCG while on it cause of the rediculous shutdown. So, i support all this guy says!

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Old 10-23-2009, 11:06 PM
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A LITTLE CONFUSED I MIXED 2 CC OF BAC WATER WITH 5OOOiu OF HCG, BUT I ONLY HAVE HALF cc SLINPIN WITH MARKINGS OF 5-50 GOING UP IN INTERVALS OF 5. 50 = 1/2 cc. WOULD I WANT TO GO TO THE 10 MARK OR 20 MARK FOR 250mgs THREE DAYS A WEEK? ANY HELP APPRECIATED.
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Old 11-19-2009, 04:09 PM
Palchod Palchod is offline
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Great info on HCG and PCT.
A question, you don't think its neccessary to run an AI during the PCT?
I've been hearing conflicting things, but I always thought it was important, but maybe I'm wrong.
Thoughts?
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palchod View Post
Great info on HCG and PCT.
A question, you don't think its neccessary to run an AI during the PCT?
I've been hearing conflicting things, but I always thought it was important, but maybe I'm wrong.
Thoughts?
If your going to use an AI "I" would only use it the 1st week of PCT. Dont remember where I read the artical and it was a few yrs back but liked what I read about only using 1st week. Most of the time I only use clomid/nolva but if I have an AI then I'll throw it in............11
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Old 12-21-2009, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loftus44 View Post
A LITTLE CONFUSED I MIXED 2 CC OF BAC WATER WITH 5OOOiu OF HCG, BUT I ONLY HAVE HALF cc SLINPIN WITH MARKINGS OF 5-50 GOING UP IN INTERVALS OF 5. 50 = 1/2 cc. WOULD I WANT TO GO TO THE 10 MARK OR 20 MARK FOR 250mgs THREE DAYS A WEEK? ANY HELP APPRECIATED.
Sorry but I just saw this. I believe I answered this for you threw PM.............11
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:00 PM
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good info
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Old 02-27-2010, 03:54 PM
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That's what I tell everyone if your gonna do it do it the right way and go that extra little mile. Some wanna use every last pennie on gear to grow, grow, grow. Then in the end they have a bad case of gyno and other negative results. Why wouldn't you want to keep as musch as you can of which you worked so hard for.
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Old 04-06-2010, 11:27 PM
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is there such a thing as an oral hcg?
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Old 05-10-2010, 01:51 PM
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Do I add the Bac water to the HCG powder in the HCG powder amp? Mix, then suck up with slin and add to my sterile vial?

Or would I suck up the powder with a slin, add it to the sterile vile, then add the 1 cc of Bacwater and mix in the sterile vial?>

They're essentially the same thing (you'll get the same result) but I was just wondering which way was easier (preferred).

Thank you, -L2P
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Old 05-17-2010, 05:32 AM
notsane01 notsane01 is offline
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Have any tried using 5ml of bac water with 5000iu powder ? So half of each slin pin works out to 500iu ? I don't want to use too much solvent or not enough either. Thanks
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Old 05-31-2010, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notsane01 View Post
Have any tried using 5ml of bac water with 5000iu powder ? So half of each slin pin works out to 500iu ? I don't want to use too much solvent or not enough either. Thanks
That will be fine to mix it that way. IMO its easier to remember 1000iu/ml, so 25units=250iu, 50units=500iu and so on.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:36 PM
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how many cc of bac water for 5000iu at 500iu every 5 days
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:11 AM
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10 ml of bac will give you a 500iu/ml
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Old 08-25-2010, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esulima View Post
how many cc of bac water for 5000iu at 500iu every 5 days
sorry I never saw this.
You dont need much bacwater to mix. Its simple math regardless of the amount you use. 1/10th will be 500ius.
I mix 1cc bacwater to 5,000ius of HCG that means on a 1cc slin pin #10-100 every 10mark is 500ius of mixed HCG..............11
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Old 09-01-2010, 01:23 PM
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so would you advise sticking to this protocol for PCT or possibly using Torem? seems to be gaining momentum as an alternative second gen serm.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:11 PM
notsane01 notsane01 is offline
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Whats the longest any of you guys kept hcg in your fridge ? I'm planning on a 12wk cycle, and mixing 5000iu at once and keeping it in my fridge. so it'll be sitting in there for about 10-11wks.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:06 AM
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What's your opinion on say using HCG for the final 30 days at 250ius e3d for a 10 week Test e cycle @400mg ew? I only ask because I know HCG while giving an increase in natty Test will also give a spike in estro. Also for that exact reason would it be wise to run HCG even after last shot of Test and up to PCT, since you will surely be spiking estro even when your Test levels will be taking a huge nose dive? I just figured you would discontinue HCG when you discontinue Test. Especially if your running HCG throughout entire cycle.
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evolving View Post
so would you advise sticking to this protocol for PCT or possibly using Torem? seems to be gaining momentum as an alternative second gen serm.
Well I know this works good BUT that doesn't mean something better can't be added. A lot of this can be trial and error, I know it was for me for yrs before these forums. Only way to know is try it and see how it works for YOU .................11
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notsane01 View Post
Whats the longest any of you guys kept hcg in your fridge ? I'm planning on a 12wk cycle, and mixing 5000iu at once and keeping it in my fridge. so it'll be sitting in there for about 10-11wks.
From what I know after mixed it can last in fridge for 30 days with steril water and 60 days with Bac water. Now this doesn't mean its bad at those magic dates but it will be weakening at that point so you might want to up the dose if any is left over at that point..............11
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey25 View Post
What's your opinion on say using HCG for the final 30 days at 250ius e3d for a 10 week Test e cycle @400mg ew? I only ask because I know HCG while giving an increase in natty Test will also give a spike in estro. Also for that exact reason would it be wise to run HCG even after last shot of Test and up to PCT, since you will surely be spiking estro even when your Test levels will be taking a huge nose dive? I just figured you would discontinue HCG when you discontinue Test. Especially if your running HCG throughout entire cycle.
I'm not sure at these small doses that it raises estro all that much. The main thing is yes Id use it the whole cycle but at least at the end and after final shot (ester length determining how long) like your saying before PCT...........11
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven11 View Post
1) 100ius ED starting after wk1 and continued through cycle and for 4-18days after last AAS shot depending on the ester length (prop 3days - testE 14days - test Cyp 18days sust250 21days). Always make the last HCG shot on day ester clears.

2) 250-300ius EOD and (same as above)

3) 500ius E5D starting after wk1 and (same as above)

Ive done all and really can't say one is better, with #2-3 you won't go through as many needles but all have worked well for me.

PCT ( post cycle therapy )

Key word here is POST, meaning after the cycle is over and that means after all AAS esters have cleared your system not after your final shot.
HCG IS NOT FOR PCT IT IS FOR PRE-PCT, the time during your cycle and after last shot of AAS while esters are clearing. PCT starts on DAY4 after your last HCG shot. The reason for this is when you inject HCG you will get a spike several hours after shot and then again 48-72 hours later, after this final spike is when you want to start your PCT. Again HCG is not used for PCT.

Most my PCTs have looked like this. Starting on day4 after last HCG shot
3-4wks of clomid @ 50mg ed (in my early days Ive used higher amounts but feel its not needed)
5-6wks of nolva @ 40mg ed 2wks and 20mg ed for remainder
IMO a PCT should last at least 4-6wks+
Also there seems to be great alternatives to clomid/nolva these days, some are available here on OLM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven11 View Post
sorry I never saw this.
You dont need much bacwater to mix. Its simple math regardless of the amount you use. 1/10th will be 500ius.
I mix 1cc bacwater to 5,000ius of HCG that means on a 1cc slin pin #10-100 every 10mark is 500ius of mixed HCG..............11
Good read. Thanks bro. So do you run it for 14 days after your last shot of enath? I only used HCG once and I took my last shot of hcg a week after my last shot of test e. Should i have ran it for another 7-10 days?
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
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Good read. Thanks bro. So do you run it for 14 days after your last shot of enath? I only used HCG once and I took my last shot of hcg a week after my last shot of test e. Should i have ran it for another 7-10 days?


Ideally yes. 14 days for testE and I like to take that last shot on day 14 then wait 3 day for HCG to clear and start PCT on day 4.................11
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:52 PM
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Default hcg

I seen the question asked with no reply so I will ask again. Will oral hcg work the same and if so what would be the amout you would take every day?
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:50 PM
minime_moomey minime_moomey is offline
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How would you recommend running HCG if you only have 5000 ius for a 12 week test e cycle?
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