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  #26  
Old 05-05-2008, 01:28 PM
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Good advice for a youngster of 46 or so!

I might add to continue using adex or whatever AI you've got going during your immediate post-cycle, pre-PCT HCG phase since HCG will increase estro as well.

Your statement to never go over 2000iu/wk of HCG is subjective (not scientific) but it is good one to make on the side of caution. However it seems to me that in stubborn case of testicular shrinkage, one may exceed what caution warrants. I have done 1000iu/ED for 10 days immediate post-cycle twice (first one out of ignorance, second one for the libido blast), but now I realize I am seriously endangering my leydig's cells, especially if I've been using it during cycle as well.

Solo
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  #27  
Old 05-05-2008, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solo48 View Post
Good advice for a youngster of 46 or so!

I might add to continue using adex or whatever AI you've got going during your immediate post-cycle, pre-PCT HCG phase since HCG will increase estro as well.

Your statement to never go over 2000iu/wk of HCG is subjective (not scientific) but it is good one to make on the side of caution. However it seems to me that in stubborn case of testicular shrinkage, one may exceed what caution warrants. I have done 1000iu/ED for 10 days immediate post-cycle twice (first one out of ignorance, second one for the libido blast), but now I realize I am seriously endangering my leydig's cells, especially if I've been using it during cycle as well.

Solo


I read that many yrs ago in the in the Anabolic reference guide 6th issue.
and have just stuck with that. Back then Id mostly do (2) 1000iu shots per wk starting 1wk before cycle ended then 2wks after. Back then I only used sust or testE.............11
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  #28  
Old 05-05-2008, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stonecold434 View Post
I have used the protocol advocated by Pirate (and 11), to good effect on a previous cycle. Hcg dosing isn't much more difficult than taking a pill. I am wondering though, last time I had ****** in a multi use vial, and I added the proper amount of bacteriostatic water, and stored it in the fridge. Wondering how you mix and store it when you get an amp of ****** and an amp of solvent. Once you break the tops off the amps, what is next? I can figure it out, but I am always open to the voice of experience.
So if you are going to use bac water you dont use the solvent? Lets say u have a 5000 iu amp, you mix with 10ml bac water in a new vial so you get 500iu per ml. Does that sound right.
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  #29  
Old 05-05-2008, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by batman View Post
So if you are going to use bac water you dont use the solvent? Lets say u have a 5000 iu amp, you mix with 10ml bac water in a new vial so you get 500iu per ml. Does that sound right.
What??? Why wouldn't you use the solvent? Its there for a purpose.

To answer your question...yes you would get 500iu per ml. If I were you I would use slin pins and dilute with 1ml or 2ml. With 1ml you would get 500iu for 10iu (the ten mark) on a slin pin. With 2ml you would get 500iu for 20iu (twenty mark) on a slin pin. Remember on a 100iu (1ml or 1cc) slin pin, every tick is 2ius; and on a 50iu (1/2ml or .5cc) slin pin, every tick is 1iu. Good luck
__________________
Five hundred what, douche bag?

Five hundred fights.
That's the number l figured when I was a kid.
Five hundred street fights...
and you can consider yourself a legitimate tough guy.
You need 'em for experience,to develop leather skin.
So I got started.
Of course, along the way...
you stop thinkin' about being tough and all that.
It stops bein' the point.
Get past the silliness of it all.
But then...after...you realize that's what you are.
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  #30  
Old 05-06-2008, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batman View Post
So if you are going to use bac water you dont use the solvent? Lets say u have a 5000 iu amp, you mix with 10ml bac water in a new vial so you get 500iu per ml. Does that sound right.
The "solvent" is just water and the HCG will not last as long with it. Bac water is your best option. And yes with a 1cc slinpin if you put 1cc BW into 5,000iu HCG p0wder at the 10mark will be 500iu HCG............11
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  #31  
Old 05-06-2008, 02:24 AM
Stansfield Stansfield is offline
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is there much difference in using 250iu 2x a week rather than taking 500iu 2x a week?
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  #32  
Old 05-06-2008, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven11 View Post
The "solvent" is just water and the HCG will not last as long with it. Bac water is your best option.
Agreed...the HCG holds up for up to 30 days when reconstituted with BW rather than the solvent (water) it often comes with...got to be kept refrigerated tho...

Respect,
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  #33  
Old 05-06-2008, 09:12 AM
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Alright, going to chime into this thread for the first time with a few questions for everyone....

First up, getting ready ready to run cycle here:
1-4 Thai Pink Dbols 30mg ED
1-14 Iranian or Schering Test E 500mg a week

PCT will be Clomid/Nolva
100/50
75/50
50/25
50/25

Now I wanted to try out HCG with this cycle, so I went ahead and grabbed some a few weeks back. I got the Pregnyl pack, 3amps + 3 solvent amps. Now from what I'm reading the jist of it is to toss the solvent amps off the bat since I'm going to use bac water.

Now I've got 3 amps each @ 1500 iu (curious where are people get 5000iu amps of hcg? I only had option of these 1500iu ones) anyways.....

So I figure 4500 IU's is clearly not going to last me a 14 week cycle, so I can either run it till I runout... or cut it down a lot and try to make it last as long as I can... what's everyones take on this?

How should I go about splitting it up so I have enough to drag me 10-12 weeks... Im looking to take between 300-500 a week... was thinking 250 ED or 300 once a week?... Any takes anyone?

Thanks so much in advance for your time
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  #34  
Old 05-06-2008, 11:28 AM
sdmlsu1 sdmlsu1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrpskn View Post
Agreed...the HCG holds up for up to 30 days when reconstituted with BW rather than the solvent (water) it often comes with...got to be kept refrigerated tho...

Respect,
I have a script for HCG and the most recent stuff I received from my pharmacy came with (2) 10ml vials, (1) ****** and (1) Bac Water (10mls). The instructions also state that when refridgerated it has a 60 day shelf life.
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  #35  
Old 05-06-2008, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
is there much difference in using 250iu 2x a week rather than taking 500iu 2x a week?
Only you can answer that, ALWAYS try to use least amount possible, I really dont think you'll need 500iu 2xwk, maybe 1xwk. Try 250iu 2xwk and you should be fine IMO.......11



itzstatic

Now I've got 3 amps each @ 1500 iu (curious where are people get 5000iu amps of hcg? I only had option of these 1500iu ones) anyways.....

If you cannot get anymore then I would wait till the end of your cycle. Do 1 amp the last wk of cycle and the other 2 the 2wks after last test shot, split them into 2shots per wk. But I really would try to get more and use thru cycle, but I wouldn't use what you have now and not have any at the end when you'll need it most to set up your PCT..........11


sdmlsu1 Quote:

I have a script for HCG and the most recent stuff I received from my pharmacy came with (2) 10ml vials, (1) ****** and (1) Bac Water (10mls). The instructions also state that when refridgerated it has a 60 day shelf life.


That is correct, it is 60days............11
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everything I say on here is for fun and fantasy role playing. Not real.


DONT ASK ME SOURCE RELATED QUESTIONS. PERIOD


I didn't say I wouldn't go fishing with the man, what Im saying is, he comes near me I'm puttin him against the wall.
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  #36  
Old 05-06-2008, 04:31 PM
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thank god you clarified hcg is NOT FOR PCT so many gymrats try to tell me to run it for post and thats all i need and i want to mushroom stamp them (no homo)
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  #37  
Old 05-07-2008, 03:16 AM
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1. HCG has been used for years as a PCT staple. So it can be part of PCT or for PCT. Just because some feel it works better during cycle doesn't mean that its not for PCT. I've used both methods before and can tell you that they both work. When I have HCG readily available at my disposal I personally use it during. I do feel that it does help you recover faster this way. Now that is just my personal experience as well as many others. Both methods are currently being used by clinics, so to say "its not for PCT" is wrong. You should not run HCG alone PCT, you should use a SERM or AI for an ancillary. I personally like to use Nolva and Clomid, but if I had a choice I feel Nolva on its own does the job better than Clomid. This is personal preference I guess, as there is alot of people who swear by Clomid. The PoWeR PCT actually uses both too.

2. Also, I always use the solvent. Yes, BW does work, but a free solvent comes with it. Why not use it? I've kept reconstituted HCG refrigerated for months (in between cycles) and it worked perfectly fine. Now thats with the NaCl water it comes with.

3. To answer your question Eleven11, Organon puts out 5000iu amps (some of the sponsors I believe still carry them)and there is another company from China that does. Its in Chinese so I can't read what it says except for the "5000iu" part.
__________________
Five hundred what, douche bag?

Five hundred fights.
That's the number l figured when I was a kid.
Five hundred street fights...
and you can consider yourself a legitimate tough guy.
You need 'em for experience,to develop leather skin.
So I got started.
Of course, along the way...
you stop thinkin' about being tough and all that.
It stops bein' the point.
Get past the silliness of it all.
But then...after...you realize that's what you are.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-07-2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double View Post
1. HCG has been used for years as a PCT staple. So it can be part of PCT or for PCT. Just because some feel it works better during cycle doesn't mean that its not for PCT. I've used both methods before and can tell you that they both work. When I have HCG readily available at my disposal I personally use it during. I do feel that it does help you recover faster this way. Now that is just my personal experience as well as many others. Both methods are currently being used by clinics, so to say "its not for PCT" is wrong. You should not run HCG alone PCT, you should use a SERM or AI for an ancillary. I personally like to use Nolva and Clomid, but if I had a choice I feel Nolva on its own does the job better than Clomid. This is personal preference I guess, as there is alot of people who swear by Clomid. The PoWeR PCT actually uses both too.

2. Also, I always use the solvent. Yes, BW does work, but a free solvent comes with it. Why not use it? I've kept reconstituted HCG refrigerated for months (in between cycles) and it worked perfectly fine. Now thats with the NaCl water it comes with.

3. To answer your question Eleven11, Organon puts out 5000iu amps (some of the sponsors I believe still carry them)and there is another company from China that does. Its in Chinese so I can't read what it says except for the "5000iu" part.
OK so discribe you PCT with HCG..........11
__________________
everything I say on here is for fun and fantasy role playing. Not real.


DONT ASK ME SOURCE RELATED QUESTIONS. PERIOD


I didn't say I wouldn't go fishing with the man, what Im saying is, he comes near me I'm puttin him against the wall.
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  #39  
Old 05-07-2008, 11:23 PM
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Default My PCT Protocol

I have used both HCG during cycle and after cycle. During seems to work a little bit better for me by being a smoother transition, but to say HCG can't be used or that its purpose isn't for PCT is wrong. Again, I think it is personal preference. If I run a long cycle I use HCG during, but if its a short one (8 weeks), then I will run it after my cycle. My short cycles usually consist of an oral and a short ester/another oral. I try to take liver values into account when I decide what orals to take, and pick mild ones orals. Now, you kind of know about how I cycle to understand where I come from. I do have bloodwork done before and after for my PSA (liver) liver.
Here is one sample of my protocol for HCG during PCT use. I have tried other standard basic HCG protocols, but this one I tweaked some for me and it is derived somewhat from the PoWeR PCT Program. I'll throw in the SERMs too.

HCG - Starts on last day of use/expected end of AAS lifespan.
Day 1: 1500iu (split into 750iu in the AM [IM] and 750iu in the PM [Sub-Q])
Day 5: 1000iu
Day 10: 1000iu
Day 16: 500iu (If needed I bump this up to 1000iu depending on atrophy, lack of libido, etc).

Serms - I use Nolva (Tamoxifen) and Clomid (Clomiphene) the day after my first HCG shot/when AAS have cleared.
Wk 1: Nolva = 40mg | Clomid = 50 mg
Wk 2: Nolva = 30mg | Clomid = 50mg
Wk 3: Nolva = 20mg | Clomid = 50mg
Wk 4: Nolva = 10mg | Clomid = 50mg
Wk 5: Nolva = 10mg | Clomid = Discontinue (I don't run Clomid for longer than 30 days, because over time it can desensitize Leydig cells/decrease responsiveness)
Wk 6: Nolva = 10mg | Clomid = Discontinued

Side Notes:
1. If I don't feel the testes are at a comfortable level, I might opt for an additional week of Nolva. If that would not work I would most likely seek medical advice through an endocrinologist/hormone specialist. So far it has never been the case.

2. From what I know there is no set time for desensitization with Clomid. Therefore, I don't run it for longer than a month, which should be a pretty safe bet. The study in Note 4 (below) states a decrease in LH responsiveness at the 6 week mark, thats why I stop after 1 month.

3. I use Tamoxifen in higher doses only in efforts and hopes to increase LH responsiveness faster. Based on science no more than 20mg/day is necessary. There is no real evidence though that supports my idea. It is a personal decision. This study shows there is no real evidence:

Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men. Andrologia. 1985 Jul-Aug;17(4):369-78. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3...y_RA&linkpos=1 &log$=relatedarticles&dbfrom=pubmed

4. Here is a link to a study that shows "prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL":

Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. (Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/640052

5. I also include Proviron (Mesterone) at some point during PCT. It is usally when testicular atrophy has resolved itself and I start with 25mg/day and increase it to 50mg after 1 week of no atrophy with the Proviron treatment. I run 50mg/day for a month, drop back down to 25mg/day for a week, then I alternate 25mg EOD with 10mg Nolva ED. I do this because its understood that androgenicity is necessary for sperm production (spermatogenesis).

I don't recommend others trying this. Actual scientific data demonstrating the effectiveness is somewhat lacking although there is some evidence. Also, there are not many successful protocols out there to be found. This is a personal decision on my part in efforts to produce more dense, mature, and total sperm.


For me running HCG during cycle works better, less hassle, and less tedious. This is what I do when I run a short cycle and use HCG post cycle. It can be alot more work and more stuff to remember. I also didn't include any peptides, such as IGF-1Lr3, MGF, etc.

A more basic HCG protocol that has worked before in the past, but not as smooth of a transition (but a lot better than a SERM on its own or with another SERM, ie. Clomid and Nolva together) is to do this exact layout up to week 4. This means no week 5-6 and no Proviron.

NOW THIS WORKS FOR ME. I DON"T EXPECT IT TO WORK FOR OTHERS THE SAME. THIS IS MY DISCLAIMER.
__________________
Five hundred what, douche bag?

Five hundred fights.
That's the number l figured when I was a kid.
Five hundred street fights...
and you can consider yourself a legitimate tough guy.
You need 'em for experience,to develop leather skin.
So I got started.
Of course, along the way...
you stop thinkin' about being tough and all that.
It stops bein' the point.
Get past the silliness of it all.
But then...after...you realize that's what you are.

Last edited by Double : 05-07-2008 at 11:26 PM.
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  #40  
Old 05-08-2008, 02:29 PM
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I like your PCT layout (clomid/nolva) and if this works for you thats great. But from everything Ive read I would not do it this way, running HCG with nolva/clomid AFTER AAS has clearded is not recommended but the bottom line here is you've takin the time to try something different and it has worked for you, same with me if I read something that makes since to me I will give it a try and if works I'll stick with it till something better comes along. Like I said in my initial post this is IMO on how to use HCG and your opinion is welcome................11
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everything I say on here is for fun and fantasy role playing. Not real.


DONT ASK ME SOURCE RELATED QUESTIONS. PERIOD


I didn't say I wouldn't go fishing with the man, what Im saying is, he comes near me I'm puttin him against the wall.
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  #41  
Old 05-08-2008, 06:05 PM
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I thought that HCG should be injected IM and not SUB-Q??
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  #42  
Old 05-08-2008, 06:53 PM
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^ It can be effectively administered either way...I prefer sub-Q, left & right of the navel.

Respect,
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  #43  
Old 05-09-2008, 02:14 AM
Onslaught81 Onslaught81 is offline
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** has been promoting low-dose HCG = 500iu/EOD etc.... for a VERY long time. Most ignored it. I have tried it and am currently 'on' it and it is working much better than the old 1500iu EOD crap which created too much estrogen and bloated me 26lb in 12 days 9 years ago! 500iu/IM M/W/F is more than enough...And I'm on tren and finishing dbol until the tren fully kicks in.
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  #44  
Old 05-09-2008, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven11 View Post
I like your PCT layout (clomid/nolva) and if this works for you thats great. But from everything Ive read I would not do it this way, running HCG with nolva/clomid AFTER AAS has clearded is not recommended but the bottom line here is you've takin the time to try something different and it has worked for you, same with me if I read something that makes since to me I will give it a try and if works I'll stick with it till something better comes along. Like I said in my initial post this is IMO on how to use HCG and your opinion is welcome................11
Eleven11, I agree with you on using HCG during cycle, but I have used this for shorter cycles, where HPTA suppression is usually not as harsh due to duration and the fact that I don't use megadoses and more than 3 AAS compounds at a time (usually not even 3). I've had good success with it too. Longer cycles....yes HCG would be a must while on. One thing/problem with HCG as of lately is that I have found less and less people carrying it.

As for what I put in bold...I have meant and thought of doing the HCG a little bit earlier (approximately the time of my last shot say of AAS or appoximately 2 weeks before ending AAS), but I really just haven't got around to trying it yet, because I was running some PH/prosteroids and switched over to S-4. I will give it a try most likely after this run.

I completly understand what you mean when you say this is your opinion on HCG. Honestly, I will probably give yours a try in the near future. I respect your opinion and the fact that you are confident enough in your HCG use to post it as information for others. I don't doubt that it doesn't work, it seems to make sense to me. My initial post was to let people know that it can be used effectively PCT; and therefore saying it wasn't for PCT at all was wrong or a misconception.

Questions for you...
1. Do you have a link or scanned image of HCG use regarding the spike 72 hours later? It that Sub-q or IM?

2. In your protocol, is HCG Sub-q or IM?
__________________
Five hundred what, douche bag?

Five hundred fights.
That's the number l figured when I was a kid.
Five hundred street fights...
and you can consider yourself a legitimate tough guy.
You need 'em for experience,to develop leather skin.
So I got started.
Of course, along the way...
you stop thinkin' about being tough and all that.
It stops bein' the point.
Get past the silliness of it all.
But then...after...you realize that's what you are.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 05-09-2008, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double View Post
Eleven11, I agree with you on using HCG during cycle, but I have used this for shorter cycles, where HPTA suppression is usually not as harsh due to duration and the fact that I don't use megadoses and more than 3 AAS compounds at a time (usually not even 3). I've had good success with it too. Longer cycles....yes HCG would be a must while on. One thing/problem with HCG as of lately is that I have found less and less people carrying it.

As for what I put in bold...I have meant and thought of doing the HCG a little bit earlier (approximately the time of my last shot say of AAS or appoximately 2 weeks before ending AAS), but I really just haven't got around to trying it yet, because I was running some PH/prosteroids and switched over to S-4. I will give it a try most likely after this run.

I completly understand what you mean when you say this is your opinion on HCG. Honestly, I will probably give yours a try in the near future. I respect your opinion and the fact that you are confident enough in your HCG use to post it as information for others. I don't doubt that it doesn't work, it seems to make sense to me. My initial post was to let people know that it can be used effectively PCT; and therefore saying it wasn't for PCT at all was wrong or a misconception.

Questions for you...
1. Do you have a link or scanned image of HCG use regarding the spike 72 hours later? It that Sub-q or IM?

2. In your protocol, is HCG Sub-q or IM?
I read about the spike in the old anabolic reference guide 6th edition. and have seen it elsewhere.
Ive always done subq but curious to see if any difference IM. I could see how IM would enter bloodstream faster.........11
__________________
everything I say on here is for fun and fantasy role playing. Not real.


DONT ASK ME SOURCE RELATED QUESTIONS. PERIOD


I didn't say I wouldn't go fishing with the man, what Im saying is, he comes near me I'm puttin him against the wall.
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  #46  
Old 05-09-2008, 04:24 PM
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I have the Anabolics 2007, which is the 6th edition. I will try to find it. I don't know how I could of missed that. It always good to see when people base their methods and protocols on science/studies, but science doesn't always work like it does on paper and thats when personal experience comes in. Much respect for you Eleven11. Thanks for the fast reply.
__________________
Five hundred what, douche bag?

Five hundred fights.
That's the number l figured when I was a kid.
Five hundred street fights...
and you can consider yourself a legitimate tough guy.
You need 'em for experience,to develop leather skin.
So I got started.
Of course, along the way...
you stop thinkin' about being tough and all that.
It stops bein' the point.
Get past the silliness of it all.
But then...after...you realize that's what you are.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 05-09-2008, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Double View Post
I have the Anabolics 2007, which is the 6th edition. I will try to find it. I don't know how I could of missed that. It always good to see when people base their methods and protocols on science/studies, but science doesn't always work like it does on paper and thats when personal experience comes in. Much respect for you Eleven11. Thanks for the fast reply.
Thats not where I read it. ARG 6th edition was writen in early '90's by Bill Phillips. Very good book for its time when there wasn't much out there........11
__________________
everything I say on here is for fun and fantasy role playing. Not real.


DONT ASK ME SOURCE RELATED QUESTIONS. PERIOD


I didn't say I wouldn't go fishing with the man, what Im saying is, he comes near me I'm puttin him against the wall.
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  #48  
Old 05-09-2008, 09:19 PM
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Ohhh....I will look for it now. I didn't notice the "reference" was specific to the title. Thanks.
__________________
Five hundred what, douche bag?

Five hundred fights.
That's the number l figured when I was a kid.
Five hundred street fights...
and you can consider yourself a legitimate tough guy.
You need 'em for experience,to develop leather skin.
So I got started.
Of course, along the way...
you stop thinkin' about being tough and all that.
It stops bein' the point.
Get past the silliness of it all.
But then...after...you realize that's what you are.
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  #49  
Old 05-14-2008, 02:45 PM
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Solo48 Solo48 is offline
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Nolvadex (or a real AI) during immediate post-cycle HCG use is necessary because the HCG raises estro too. But the AAS from your cycle won't yet have cleared your system (in most cases) so the Nolva or Clomid is not technically for post-cycle therapy in terms of recovery of your HPTA. The Nolva (or other AI) is for protection from the estro from using HCG to regain testicular size. IF you continue using HCG during your actual PCT (for HPTA recovery purposes), usually beginning two to three weeks after your last AAS injection, you will be defeating your purpose, that is, recovery of your full HPTA function. HCG should be used post-cycle, yes: the day after your last AAS injection. But it should not be used during the recovery or therapy part (Post-Cycle Therapy) of your PCT, which, as I say, usually begins two to three weeks after your last AAS inject. Therefore, you have a window of two to three weeks to use HCG (along with protection like Nolva or, better, Adex) before beginning your actual post-cycle therapy.

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Old 05-22-2008, 11:11 AM
tank23 tank23 is online now
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HOW LONG CAN YOU KEEP THE SYRINGES IN THE FRIDGE???? Great post by the way very helpful.. Thank You
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