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  #1  
Old 05-03-2016, 10:00 PM
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Default Hgh and T4

I have read the studies... What I am asking is have any of my outlaw brothers used t4 while on hgh? What was your experience? Was the effects of hgh increased while on t4? Did you notice a significant difference from when you run it without... Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks in advance!
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Old 07-06-2016, 07:46 PM
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I have read the studies... What I am asking is have any of my outlaw brothers used t4 while on hgh? What was your experience? Was the effects of hgh increased while on t4? Did you notice a significant difference from when you run it without... Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks in advance!
Running 200mgs a day first thing in the morning, and then waiting 2 hrs to eat. Along with a 4 iu split depending on the brand of gh. Leaning out fast, while holding steady at 201lbs
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Old 07-13-2016, 05:43 PM
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I used to run T4 for years and stopped and can't tell a difference. I would only use thyroid now if it is absolutely necessary. T4 and hgh seems to be most popular on the internet but haven't talked to any bodybuilders or people who coach bodybuilders who think of it as important as it is made out to be in cyber world.
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Old 07-14-2016, 07:28 PM
TheBrick TheBrick is offline
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There are legit studies that show how T4 is very beneficial while taking HGH. T3 works against you. Google it. Plenty of studies to prove it.
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Old 07-14-2016, 09:38 PM
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There are legit studies that show how T4 is very beneficial while taking HGH. T3 works against you. Google it. Plenty of studies to prove it.
I have yet to read anywhere that quantifies the difference.
Would like to know.
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Old 07-15-2016, 12:18 AM
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I can't find the article online that I once read but a doctor or a nurse that deals with people that have to be on HGH stated that you have to have normal t4 levels before starting it. There is also studies shown online that I remember reading one that wasn't in the medical field that one person had to increase there dosage of t4 medication because he was on hgh for along time.

Last edited by Resilient : 07-15-2016 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 07-15-2016, 09:59 AM
TheBrick TheBrick is offline
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Originally Posted by MorganKane View Post
I have yet to read anywhere that quantifies the difference.
Would like to know.
I don't have time to search for the studies but found this really quickly:

To maximize the benefits of HGH the body needs the conversion of the additional T4 to T3.

"So we want elevated T3 levels when we take GH, or we won’t be getting ANYWHERE NEAR the full anabolic effect of our injectable GH without enough T3. And now we know that not only do we need the additional T3, but we actually want the CONVERSION process of T4 into T3 to take place, because it’s the presence of those mediator enzymes that will allow the T3 to be synergistic with GH, instead of being inhibitory as is seen when T3 is simply added to a GH cycle. And remember, we don’t only want T3 levels high, but we want types 1 and 2 deiodinase to get us there- and when we take supplemental T3, that just doesn’t happen…all that happens is the type 3 deiodinase enzyme shows up and negates the beneficial effects of the T3 when we combine it with GH."
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by TheBrick View Post
I don't have time to search for the studies but found this really quickly:

To maximize the benefits of HGH the body needs the conversion of the additional T4 to T3.

"So we want elevated T3 levels when we take GH, or we won’t be getting ANYWHERE NEAR the full anabolic effect of our injectable GH without enough T3. And now we know that not only do we need the additional T3, but we actually want the CONVERSION process of T4 into T3 to take place, because it’s the presence of those mediator enzymes that will allow the T3 to be synergistic with GH, instead of being inhibitory as is seen when T3 is simply added to a GH cycle. And remember, we don’t only want T3 levels high, but we want types 1 and 2 deiodinase to get us there- and when we take supplemental T3, that just doesn’t happen…all that happens is the type 3 deiodinase enzyme shows up and negates the beneficial effects of the T3 when we combine it with GH."
Nothing in that quantifies the difference.
It just says better.
What does that really mean?
Is there any studies that shows the difference between GH with T3 and T4?
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Old 07-15-2016, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by TheBrick View Post
I don't have time to search for the studies but found this really quickly:

To maximize the benefits of HGH the body needs the conversion of the additional T4 to T3.

"So we want elevated T3 levels when we take GH, or we won’t be getting ANYWHERE NEAR the full anabolic effect of our injectable GH without enough T3. And now we know that not only do we need the additional T3, but we actually want the CONVERSION process of T4 into T3 to take place, because it’s the presence of those mediator enzymes that will allow the T3 to be synergistic with GH, instead of being inhibitory as is seen when T3 is simply added to a GH cycle. And remember, we don’t only want T3 levels high, but we want types 1 and 2 deiodinase to get us there- and when we take supplemental T3, that just doesn’t happen…all that happens is the type 3 deiodinase enzyme shows up and negates the beneficial effects of the T3 when we combine it with GH."


That's not a scientific study from research that's just a bro explaining his theory. Not saying he's wrong, just saying that isn't a actual study
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Old 07-15-2016, 02:04 PM
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Default Got confused too

I tried to find studies on this years ago when I started running GH
and the only answers I got were opinions stated as facts by guys quoting other guys on boards just like this one, so I just started running a low dose of Bitiron
or Dithyron which of course is a combination of both T3 and T4 while running GH and it's worked well for me. Everyone's different though so what works for me may not work as well for you.
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Old 07-21-2016, 08:55 PM
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T4 needs to be taken on empty stomach yes? Remember reading it's a waste to take with food. Also read it may be better to take before bed due to slower digestion so it's exposed to absorption longer . Any truth to any of this?
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Old 09-05-2016, 12:57 PM
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T4 needs to be taken on empty stomach yes? Remember reading it's a waste to take with food. Also read it may be better to take before bed due to slower digestion so it's exposed to absorption longer . Any truth to any of this?
According to all the literature and my mother's prescription it should all be taken first thing in the morning on an empty stomach.
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Old 09-05-2016, 01:01 PM
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I have yet to read anywhere that quantifies the difference.
Would like to know.
Morgan, I have read the studies. I'll try to look them up if you like. They do support the use of t4 because of the deodinase conversion. And supposedly no need to taper up and down with t4,but I'm not convinced about that. Now that I'm using HGH I'm leery of constantly using t4, so I'm trying to decide how I want to pulse it.
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Old 09-05-2016, 01:11 PM
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Morgan, I have read the studies. I'll try to look them up if you like. They do support the use of t4 because of the deodinase conversion. And supposedly no need to taper up and down with t4,but I'm not convinced about that. Now that I'm using HGH I'm leery of constantly using t4, so I'm trying to decide how I want to pulse it.
Again...
Have you seen anything that actually quantifies the difference.

if its .0001% better its better to use T4 but it makes no practical difference.

This became popular after a Antony Roberts article but I have yet anyone actually quantifying the difference.

So how much better it is.
How much better is the end result.
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Old 09-05-2016, 01:20 PM
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Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1981 Apr;96(4):475-9.

The effect of growth hormone on the plasma levels of T4, free-T4, T3, reverse T3 an TBG in hypopituitary patients.

Gács G, Bános C.


Abstract


The plasma concentrations of thyroxine (T4), free thyroxine (free-T4), triiodothyronine (T3), reverse triiodothyronine (rT3), TSH and thyroxine-binding globulin (TBG) were measured in 19 children suffering from idiopathic growth hormone deficiency. Blood was taken before and one month after growth hormone treatment. Ten patients were hypothyroid (group 1) and 9 were euthyroid (group 2). The basal T3 and rT3 levels correlated well with the T4 concentrations. Free-T4 levels were very low in all the hypothyroid patients and proved to be the most reliable index of TSH deficiency. TBG concentration was high in th hypopituitary patients regardless of their thyroid function. Following growth hormone treatment T4, free-T4 and rT3 levels fell in both groups. The T3 concentration rose in group 1 but no change was seen in group 2. There was a significant correlation between the changes of T4 and T3, such that the increase in T3 level was greatest in those with only a slight reduction of T4 concentration and no T3 increase was seen with more marked T4 decreases. The plasma TBG concentration is enhanced in growth hormone deficiency causing relatively high T4 values. Growth hormone treatment reduces T4 secretion and affects the peripheral metabolism of thyroid hormones resulting in an increase of T3 and a reduction of rT3 concentration.


PMID: 6782790 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Effect of thyroid hormone and growth hormone on recovery from hypothyroidism of epiphyseal growth plate cartilage and its adjacent bone.

Lewinson D, Harel Z, Shenzer P, Silbermann M, Hochberg Z.


Source

Laboratory of Musculoskeletal Research, Rappaport Family Institute for Research in the Medical Sciences, Technion-Israel Institute of Technology, Haifa.


Abstract


Hypothyroidism was induced in young female Sprague-Dawley rats by the addition of methimazole (0.67 mg/ml) to drinking water for a period of 7 weeks (7-14 weeks of age). The responses of the articular cartilage, epiphyseal growth plate cartilage, epiphyseal trabecular bone, and metaphyseal trabecular bone in the proximal tibia were assessed by structural parameters. In addition, replacement therapies were introduced for the last 2 weeks of the experimental period. These included 0.7 U/kg BW human GH (hGH), 15 micrograms/kg BW L-T4 (T4), and a combination of hGH and T4 at the same doses. In the hypothyroid rats, the width of epiphyseal growth plate cartilage decreased by 27%, that of articular cartilage by 35%, epiphyseal trabecular bone volume by 30%, and metaphyseal trabecular bone volume by 66% relative to those in age-matched control tissues. T4 treatment led to a full restoration of the epiphyseal trabecular bone and surpassed by 40% the control value. The magnitude of the articular cartilage and the epiphyseal trabecular bone volume returned to control values, while that of metaphyseal trabecular bone was 68% of control values. Treatment with hGH did not improve the epiphyseal growth plate cartilage or articular cartilage. It did restore epiphyseal trabecular bone to almost normal values, but metaphyseal trabecular bone improved to only a small though significant level (45% of control value). The combination of T4 and hGH resulted in an additional enlargement in the width of the epiphyseal growth plate cartilage and an increase in metaphyseal trabecular bone volume compared to those in the T4 group. Qualitative examinations indicated that it was only in the T4 and T4 plus hGH groups that the lowest chondrocytes in the epiphyseal growth plate cartilage resumed their normal hypertrophied size. These results suggest that the change in the hypothyroid state do not rely solely on the lack of pituitary GH synthesis and secretion, as replacement by exogenous GH did not restore normal epiphyseal growth plate cartilage morphology or its remodeling into metaphyseal trabecular bone. Treatment with T4 (which restored endogenous pituitary GH to 30% of control levels) results in full recovery of the epiphyseal growth plate cartilage morphology along with its associated metaphyseal trabecular bone. In addition, it can also be concluded that the decrease in epiphyseal trabecular bone volume observed in the hypothyroid animals was due solely to the GH-deficient state that accompanied hypothyroidism.


PMID: 2912707 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Old 09-06-2016, 06:09 AM
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How much would u suggest taking of the T4/T3? And would u still do a 2wk on 2wks off to let the thyroid recover or would u just stay on entire time of gh use?
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Old 09-06-2016, 10:00 AM
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A few comments on the study.
One its in rats who they induced hypothyroidism.
Using GH does not necessary mean your thyroid will shut down.

If I understand U/kg to be iu. Then a 220 lbs body builder would take 70iu a day.

Also, the amount of T4 a 220lbs person would take would be 1,500mcg a day.
And its not really talking about the improvement nor the difference between using T3 and T4.

The first one does not even mention use of T4/T3 nor does it quantify it.
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Old 09-06-2016, 10:01 AM
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How much would u suggest taking of the T4/T3? And would u still do a 2wk on 2wks off to let the thyroid recover or would u just stay on entire time of gh use?
I wouldnt take any time off. Your thyroid recovers well.
I wouldnt use much T3 or T4 regardless.

How much GH are you using?
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Old 09-06-2016, 12:05 PM
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A few comments on the study.
One its in rats who they induced hypothyroidism.
Using GH does not necessary mean your thyroid will shut down.

If I understand U/kg to be iu. Then a 220 lbs body builder would take 70iu a day.

Also, the amount of T4 a 220lbs person would take would be 1,500mcg a day.
And its not really talking about the improvement nor the difference between using T3 and T4.

The first one does not even mention use of T4/T3 nor does it quantify it.
I'm no believer in rat studies either, so I'm with you on that. However see this line from the first study: Growth hormone treatment reduces T4 secretion and affects the peripheral metabolism of thyroid hormones resulting in an increase of T3 and a reduction of rT3 concentration. That's enough to make me think that there's something to t4 supplementation. I'll find the full studies as well, I believe I know how. And. I'll look for more. Although I am beginning to think I'm spending too much time on this stuff lately. I need to figure out a way to monetize my knowledge.
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Old 09-06-2016, 04:05 PM
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I'm no believer in rat studies either, so I'm with you on that. However see this line from the first study: Growth hormone treatment reduces T4 secretion and affects the peripheral metabolism of thyroid hormones resulting in an increase of T3 and a reduction of rT3 concentration. That's enough to make me think that there's something to t4 supplementation. I'll find the full studies as well, I believe I know how. And. I'll look for more. Although I am beginning to think I'm spending too much time on this stuff lately. I need to figure out a way to monetize my knowledge.
I am not saying its not better with T4.
Actually, I am not really saying much.

I am just asking for someone to quantify the difference.
I have yet to see a study that says its x amount better or someone that as some type of trustworthy broknowledge with both T4 and T3 in the "normal" GH setting.

It went from T3 is great to "you are wasting your GH if you dont use T4".
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Old 09-09-2016, 06:20 AM
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I am not saying its not better with T4.
Actually, I am not really saying much.

I am just asking for someone to quantify the difference.
I have yet to see a study that says its x amount better or someone that as some type of trustworthy broknowledge with both T4 and T3 in the "normal" GH setting.

It went from T3 is great to "you are wasting your GH if you dont use T4".
I expected more from you mk. There are millions of articles that show that difference in rats doses and human doses has a calculated rate. I think it 12 to 1, not just straight forward across the board.
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Old 09-09-2016, 07:35 AM
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For what it's worth all this did seem to start with the article by Anthony Roberts. Who I also can't stand.
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:24 AM
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I expected more from you mk. There are millions of articles that show that difference in rats doses and human doses has a calculated rate. I think it 12 to 1, not just straight forward across the board.
Cant you just post up the articles if you know a million of them.
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Old 09-09-2016, 09:56 PM
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It is not simply 12 to 1. It also has surface area of the organism in the equation. It's not simple. And in reality what works in rats rarely works the same in humans. We are very different physiologically.
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Old 09-09-2016, 10:02 PM
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Cant you just post up the articles if you know a million of them.
Can't you just google since there a million of them and your the one who doesn't know?
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